This is the talk page for discussing the page, Madolche Butlerusk.
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"Butrusk" or "Butlerusk"
So Master D and I are having a disagreement over the name of this monster. He prefers "Butrusk" to go with the Japanese phonetic while I prefer "Butlerusk", the name it was before. My problem with "Butrusk" is that it loses the obvious and clear butler+rusk reference. The Japanese have it easier since leaving it as batorasuku leaves the butler (batora) and rusk (rasuku) references intact. I believe the "ra" doesn't have to be used exclusively with "batora" or "rasuku" as in if you use it with one, the other can't use it. It's a pun since both can use it to create the words. The name "butrusk" ruins the pronunciation and the reference. It cannot be discerned solely from "Butrusk" that the "But" comes from butler and the pronunciation is ruined. It is now pronounced "but-rusk" which is terrible. Though I suppose it can be pronounced "butterusk" as well but that still has no "butler" reference and actually creates a reference to butter, a reference the original name did not possess. To me, "Butlerusk" is the ideal choice since it fits the naming scheme that all Madolche possess and keeps the butler and rusk reference intact. - 魔法師 (talk • contribs) 20:19, July 17, 2012 (UTC)
Unfortunately, Butrusk is the correct name; even you admit that. Whether you want it or not, the correct name must be referenced somewhere. It'll eventually get an English name, so hopefully that will make it clearer. MadRest 12:55, July 18, 2012 (UTC)
- My problem is that it ruins the pun found in the Japanese name. It's fine in Japanese but it does not translate well in English. The name may be correct in Japanese but in cases like this, you have to consider the context it was given and accommodate when translating. You have to make clear the "Butler+Rusk" reference, something a literal translation does not do. You have some leeway in making a translation so that you can make it both accurate and preserve the pun. Not everything has to be translated literally. "Butlerusk" is still a correct translation since it fits and preserves the pun and is easily understood by an English audience. "Butrusk" isn't really a translation, more of a phonetic rendering in English that doesn't translate the pun over. - 魔法師 (talk • contribs) 19:27, July 18, 2012 (UTC)
A portmanteau doesn't work that way. You can take any part of its name and combine it with another part of a different word. They don't have to be 2 complete words. You're complaining that it isn't easy to figure out. That's redundant, 'cause most people don't know what a rusk is, anyway, and you're concerned people won't get the butler reference. The only other viable option is Butlusk; maybe that will hint at butler a bit more, but a portmanteau (other than Butlersk) can't be made with the whole word Butler. MadRest 18:23, July 21, 2012 (UTC)
- Konami themselves translated it as "Butlerusk". They kept the Madolche's names intact except for ones that had Japanese references that English speakers would not get, i.e. Madolche Majoleine (Majo=JP for Witch) to Madolche Magileine. This did not have Japanese references so it did not get it's name changed. This means that the OCG name was intended to be "Butlerusk" as well since Konami would've called it "Butrusk" if that had been the original name. And if you're complaining about kana, complain about Mewfeuille's name too since that doesn't match the kana either. Face it, you're the only one who's translating it as "Butrusk". - 魔法師 MoFaatSi (talk • contribs) (talk • contribs) 02:20, August 25, 2012 (UTC)
- While I do agree that the intended translation was likely "Butlerusk", and see no reason why it shouldn't work as a portmanteau, I think that's a pretty bad argument for why it was translated that way. We should keep in mind that there is no official "pattern" or rule that Konami follow when localizing names, even if some vague connection is found. Kevin Tewart recently mentioned on Pojo that the reason behind the name changes to the Thunders in REDU (Pahunder, as opposed to Fathunder) was because fans might make a joke out of "Fat Hunder." Based on that, you could easily argue that the intended translation was "Butrusk", but it was changed to "Butlerusk" to avoid mockery. There are far too many factors to consider to make an accurate set of general guidelines for localizing names a realistic proposal. That being said, it doesn't really matter whether it was "Butrusk" or "Butlerusk" originally anymore.--YamiWheeler (talk • contribs) 03:06, August 25, 2012 (UTC)
- Why can't you get this? It doesn't work even in the TCG. It's not the 'r' part of butler; it's the 'le'. The JP word for butler, romanized, would be batoraa, with two 'a'. However, this card's name is batorasuku, not batoraasuku. Because there is only one 'a', that means the 'ra' part signifies either the 'le' from butler or the 'ru' from rusk. You seem to be ignoring the 'le', and that's why you can't comprehend that it's impossible, since the 'l' is pronounced like 'r' in Japanese. MadRest 17:39, August 25, 2012 (UTC)
Since there are both, 'le' and 'ru', but only one 'ra', it means that either Butrusk or Butlesk is possible. Butrusk is the more sensible one, so it's obviously that. MadRest 17:41, August 25, 2012 (UTC)
- Oh hey, shut up about this - it's revealed as "Bulterusk" and nothing more. Why continue this crap as if it's just wrong in the speak and sound. We all knew about the sound of "l" and "r" in the japen, it happened before - with the twin. They are corrected again and again, so we can't argue anymore about that. If you want to change it into correct name, email Konami and let's see what will they consider about this. --iFredCat 17:42, August 25, 2012 (UTC)
I think it's time to close this discussion. On this talk page and User talk:魔法師#Butlerusk, it's clear that generally most editors favour using "Butlerusk" as the translation and it's the widely accepted translation in other areas of the fandom. There are two conventions of translating puns mentioned here. It's unlikely at this point that the vast majority of editors of this area are going to side with MasterD's method, so there's not much point in continuing. -- Deltaneos (talk) 17:30, August 26, 2012 (UTC)
- It doesn't matter what they favor. It is wrong, and no one has offered a counterargument to that. This isn't a matter of which is better. One of them is wrong, and it can't be proven that it's right. And all of the translators here haven't offered proof that it fits with the phonetic name. I'm not backing down unless proof is provided that it fits with the phonetic name. This isn't a case where there are 2 correct names, and 1 has to be chosen. This is a case where 1 of them is wrong, and majority doesn't count here, unless proof is provided. MadRest 19:00, August 26, 2012 (UTC)
- Why did you even think that majority mattered here? I offer a discrepancy which arises with the name. The discrepancy is still not disproven, and you decide to close the argument. The only thing they are saying is, "Butlerusk would be better", without offering any proof. They still know that the discrepancy exists, yet they still insist on it, because it only sounds better. Majority isn't needed. Only one person needs to offer proof that Butlerusk can be pronounced as Batorasuku. I already said that the 'le' and 'ru' are both pronounced as 'ra', meaning that one of them cannot be in the translated name. MadRest 19:12, August 26, 2012 (UTC)
- The only portion of "butler" used in the Japanese name is "butl" with the "l" doubling as the "r" in "rusk". The different sounds for "l" and "r" in English stop the double usage working on English ears. To you, the translation must rely on the same consonant being used, regardless of how comprehensible it is. To other editors, being that direct loses meaning, a translation which ties the words "butler" and "rusk" together through a consonant is similar enough to be acceptable and an acceptable translation used officially trumps an unofficial translation. Who's right and who's wrong is a matter of preference. I can't imagine there being any universal translation rule which says that one of those methods must always be used, so there is no way of proving one is right. In cases like that consensus or as close as we can get to consensus is the best decider left. -- Deltaneos (talk) 21:21, August 26, 2012 (UTC)