Talk: "Negate" vs. "Destroy" and Continuous Cards

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 /////  *  Step 1: Player A activates "Raigeki." 

   * Step 2: Player B chains "Imperial Order" to negate the effect of "Raigeki." 

   * Step 3: Player A chains "Mystical Space Typhoon" (or "Dust Tornado") to destroy "Imperial Order." 

(resolve in reverse order)

   * Step 3 resolves first. "Mystical Space Typhoon" destroys "Imperial Order."' '

   * Step 2 would resolve next. "Imperial Order" has been destroyed though and its effect disappears. 

   * Step 1 resolves. "Raigeki's" effect activates as normal. /////////

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This statements is wrong : /// "Mystical Space Typhoon" destroys "Imperial Order." ////

Imperial order will negate Mystical space typhoon effect

• Imperial Order is a Continuous Trap Card. It's effect only applies when it resolves. Mystical Space Typhoon destroys it before it's effect comes into force. Same situation with Dust Tornado and Royal Decree.--TwoTailedFox (My Talk Page) 15:26, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Interpage conflict with "Resolve"

From Resolve: Any card or effect that activates must resolve, unless the activation itself was negated.

From "Negate"_vs._"Destroy"_and_Continuous_Cards: If "Macro Cosmos" is activated, and your opponent Chains "Mystical Space Typhoon" to its activation, then "Macro Cosmos" is destroyed, and it resolves with no effect; you do not get to Special Summon a "Helios - The Primordial Sun". The same case goes to "Fire Formation - Tenki", If it gets destroyed by "Mystical Space Typhoon" when it's activated, you do not get to add 1 Beast-Warrior-Type Monster.

Macro_Cosmos effect: When this card resolves: You can Special Summon 1 "Helios - The Primordial Sun" from your hand or Deck. While this card is face-up on the field, any card sent to the Graveyard is banished instead.

Theory: When the yugioh rules began developing, and as rules knowledge was passed around, people may have misconstrued the phenomenom of continuous effects not being applied to the field if they are not on the field upon resolving. It's clear why the continuous effects on the card would not apply, due to it not being on the field when the effects would usually start kicking in; however, due to possible oversight, people construed this as if all effects written on the card are effectively negated, when that is not necessarily the case.

What is present: One page says resolving will happen (and trigger triggered effects that are not continuously applied effects) no matter what unless negated. The other page says Continuous-like spells and traps will have their effects effectively negated if they are destroyed prior to resolving.

I do not want to jump the gun and edit this page prematurely, because there may actually be a contrived rewording of either page that could solve the rule conflict between the two pages. However, intuitively it seems that destroying a Macro Cosmos with a Mystical Space Typhoon would not prevent it's triggered effect that clearly seems as though it would successfully trigger given all the other rules built up to describe behaviour of Triggered Effects and such.

--Yugiohrulesarepoorlydesigned (talk • contribs) 20:06, June 15, 2014 (UTC)

The issue here is that there is a difference between "not resolving" and "resolving without effect". When a card or effect is activated, that card or effect will always resolve, unless its activation is negated. However, if you Chain "Mystical Space Typhoon" to "Macro Cosmos", it instead resolves without effect. This distinction is important: "Geartown" will miss the timing if when it is activated (Chain Link 1) "Mystical Space Typhoon" destroys it as Chain Link 2, since the last thing to happen was it resolving (without effect), not it being destroyed; if instead its activation is negated by "Magic Jammer", then the last thing to happen was it being destroyed, so it can activate its effect.

Essentially, you can think of effects of Continuous Spell/Trap Cards that activate on the field as having the condition "You must control this face-up card to activate and to resolve this effect." Since this applies to all of them, it's just not included.

Also, I should point out that "Macro Cosmos" has an older version of PCST. "Fire Formation - Tenki" has the exact same timing for its effect, but says "When this card is activated:" instead of "When this card resolves:".

This page isn't that great anyway. To my understanding, it was originally an old UDE Advanced Gameplay FAQ page that was copied verbatim but updated over time by editors. UDE never were too great with rulings. --SnorlaxMonster 15:20, June 16, 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarity. Also this is interesting: when I read "When this card is activated: You can..." on Fire Formation - Tenki, it reads like a trigger effect (though triggered effects on spells/traps are distinctly called "trigger-like" so there may be subtle differences with how they are handled) that triggers when a the card starts a chain. However, since this is an optional trigger-like effect whose condition is met after the spell itself has been added to the chain, one can almost argue that it misses the timing always and is a redundant effect. This is obviously not the case, but the reason is unclear:

Is it because the triggered effect is from the card on top of the chain; are the triggered effects of a card like this coupled and treated as part of the same chain link? Are they actually different chain links, but somehow start the chain simultaneously? (probably not because that would abuse the meaning of the word "when") Maybe this is not the place to ask these questions, but this is neat.

--Yugiohrulesarepoorlydesigned (talk • contribs) 19:02, June 16, 2014 (UTC)

Is there some reference of this in the Rule Book, or specifically stated by Konami?

While I understand and follow this rule, some of my friends and viewers have trouble accepting this sense none of us can seem to find a mention of it in the Rule Book, could someone site a source?

YGOSmurf (talk • contribs) 21:32, September 18, 2015 (UTC)

1) This is how the game works, and the mechanics described come from rulings too numerous and tangential to directly mention.

2) A lack of comprehension on the part of your friends does not constitute an emergency on our part.

3) There is no 3), because 1) and 2) are just that good. Seriously, if you want example of this, go play one of the newer video games, and see what happens when you try to break this rule. No rush, I'll wait.--TwoTailedFox (talk) 22:47, September 20, 2015 (UTC)

So the answer is no. Thanks. Hope your having a better day today. YGOSmurf (talk • contribs) 01:41, September 21, 2015 (UTC)

This page is actually adapted from a section on the old Upper Deck Entertainment website. You can find it towards the bottom of this page. While UDE rulings are not necessarily correct anymore, this has been backed up by subsequent post-UDE rulings for Continuous Cards (I don't have any handy, but I'm sure I've seen them before). --SnorlaxMonster 08:32, September 21, 2015 (UTC)