Forum:Rulings(black garden, endphase etc)

1. I had been playing for a long time before psct so I've only recently went to check up black garden's effect again. Now I'm slightly confused regarding one ruling.

"When a monster is Summoned face-up, if the monster is face-down when "Black Garden"'s effect resolves, then you neither halve the monster's ATK nor Summon a "Rose Token".[7]"

I had always been following this ruling for quite a while, applying it too if the monster leaves the field before garden resolves (eg. torrential). But looking at the new black garden's text:

"When a monster(s) is Normal or Special Summoned, except by the effect of "Black Garden": Halve its ATK, also you Special Summon 1 "Rose Token" (Plant-Type/DARK/Level 2/ATK 800/DEF 800) to its controller's opponent's side of the field, in Attack Position."

I'm not that familiar with psct but when i looked it up, I believe that this would be opposite to the original rulings cause of the word "also", that it doesn't matter what happens to the monster, the token will be summoned as long as the monster's summon was successful.

So which would be right?

2. As for forbidden dress, I'm curious about its damage step uses. Specifically the cannot be targeted part. I know that once the monster has been targeted, dress can't do anything against the targeting. When I looked up on damage step, I saw this part.

Substep 2: Flipping the Face-Down Monster Face-Up

"If the monster being attacked is face-down, it is flipped face-up at this time. If the monster has a Flip Effect or a Trigger Effect that activates when it is flipped face-up, the effect will not activate at this time unless otherwise stated by the card text."

Substep 2 & Substep 3: Before Damage Calculation

"Effects that increase, decrease, halve, or double the ATK and/or DEF of a monster can be activated at this time."

Substep 6: Resolve effects

"The Flip Effect of the monster flipped face-up by the attack activate at this time. If the flipped monster had a Trigger Effect that activates when the monster is flipped face-up (“Royal Keeper”, “Nightmare Penguin”, etc.), it will be activated at this time."

So if I battle a facedown penguin soldier/sazank/ryko/snowman eater etc, could I activate my forbidden dress during substep 2/3 when it is flipped/before damage calculation on my attacking monster to prevent it from being targeted since that effect has yet to activate?

3. During the end phase if my opponent has more than 6 cards and he discards for the handsize limit, can he still activate effects, both mandatory and optional?

Eg(mandatory). End phase discard eclipse wyvern, does it activate?

Eg(optional). There is a face up macro cosmos and I discard a Blaster, Dragon Ruler of Infernos during the end phase for hand size limit. Can I use the optional effect to add when banished? If i do, do I discard again?

There's a similar question for super rejuvenation too cause of this ruling:

"If you have already applied the effect of "Super Rejuvenation" during this End Phase and then you discard cards for hand size limit, then you cannot draw more cards for "Super Rejuvenation", even if you discarded Dragon-Type monster. However, if you discard Dragon-Type monsters for hand size limit during the End Phase and it is possible for you to apply the effect of "Super Rejuvenation", then you can draw cards"

Meaning you can discard for hand size, then use reju's effect? Then do you have to discard again?

4. Lastly, regarding LADD. It has a mandatory negation effect which will activate as long as any chainable effect is activated(except speed 3). But what about if LADD's effect is currently negated(Eg. fiendish chain, breakthrough skill, veiler, chalice etc) or if it is unable to -500atk/def(negated 4 times)? I believe it would still activate regardless since it can still activate just that it is negated.

Eg. My opponent has a facedown solemn judgment, other irrelevant backrow and LADD(negated 4 times or effect currently negated via breakthrough skill etc). I activate heavy storm, LADD is forced to activate(but will later resolve unsuccessfully). So the chain is CL1 Heavy Storm, CL2 LADD, thus blocking my opponent from using solemn judgment on my heavy storm.

Is this situation correct?

Sorry for the wall of text, just some questions I ran into. Thanks a lot to anybody who can help! Renz0kuken (talk • contribs) 13:03, May 6, 2013 (UTC)

1. You are right, but what I think happened here is that the original ruling was never canceled, hence it trumps the current card text, which (I suppose) somehow had an error slipped in.

2. Theoretically, you should be able to do that. But the fact that there isn't an official ruling on this means that it has never happened in an official tournament duel, meaning there is no way to back up that claim. So you can only rely on consensus with whomever you are playing. It's kind of like house-ruling it.

3. End Phase. "If an action is to be taken "at the end of the End Phase", such as the wear-off of the temporary 3000 ATK boost of "Theinen the Great Sphinx", it is, predictably, the very last thing to happen in this Phase before the Hand Limit Discard occurs." So the answer is no, you can't.

4. LADD has a specific ruling saying that it cannot chain its effect more than once in the same chain. What this means is that its possible to negate its effect before it resolves, by chaining it after LADD's effect. As for the ATK/DEF part, it can activate its effect regardless of its active ATK and DEF because reducing ATK and DEF is part of the effect, not the a cost. --Eps01 (talk • contribs) 13:38, May 6, 2013 (UTC)

1. It only work if you see the monster that Summoned. It halved the ATK and Special Summon a Token at same time.

2. It missed the timing. Similar to the ruling of "Ally of Justice Catastor" or "Neo-Spacian Grand Mole", if they were attacked while face-down, the certain step has passed and they are destroyed without resolved their effect.

3. Yes, "Eclipse Wyvern" activated regardless where it was sending from, except Banished Zone (It used "Return" instead of "Send"), so you have to check your deck and banish 1 Level 7 or higher LIGHT or DARK Dragon from your deck (if you have any). So for Blaster effect, that happened before End Phase so you would just discard until 6 cards once. Once "Super Rejuvenation" activated, it only give you all draw engine in one go then after you finished draw, its effect ceased and discard phase started, but before it could processing and you have other "Super Rejuvenation" in your hand, you can start that again. But if you let the "Discard Phase" to processing, you will repeat it after activate the second copy of "Super Rejuvenation". End Phase wouldn't cease until you have 6 cards in your hand.

4. Remove 500 ATK/DEF is cost, if I am wrong, to activate his effect. --iFredCat 13:39, May 6, 2013 (UTC)

"Once per Chain, during either player's turn, when a Spell Card, Trap Card, or monster effect is activated: This card loses exactly 500 ATK and DEF and that activation is negated.". It's part of the effect because there is no ";" between ATK/DEF reduction and negation.

Also, from Super Rejuvenation's OCG rulings: "Suppose that you already drew cards for the effect of "Super Rejuvenation", and afterwards you discard or Tribute more Dragon-Type monsters. You already drew cards for the effect of "Super Rejuvenation" during the End Phase, so you cannot apply the effect a second time to draw more cards during the same End Phase."--Eps01 (talk • contribs) 14:24, May 6, 2013 (UTC)

Clarification

Ok I'm seeing 2 different responses for all 4 questions lol. To clarify,

1. My question is with regards to the old ruling vs the new PSCT version which states "also", which accordingly means that the monster doesn't need to get halved(be it removed via torrential etc) for the token to be summoned. So meanwhile do I follow the old ruling or do I follow the psct?

2. iFredCat: Those 2 are different in that they need to activate at the start of damage step. The ones I mention are flip effects and, at least according to the breakdown of damage step, only activate in substep 6 so they haven't chosen a target. What I am asking is since it targets later, can I use forbidden dress in substep 2/3(ie flipping of facedown monster/before damage calculation). This is where I have seen what the monster is BUT since the monster hasn't targeted, I use dress to prevent the targeting later in substep 6 when it finally activates. Sounds super nitpicky though, but makes ophion that much harder to kill since even a facedown sazank during battle wouldn't stand a chance if this is true.

3. Yeaaaaa, clear difference in response. I had the same idea as Eps01 where discarding during end phase for hand size is the last thing to happen. That's why I included the mandatory effect(eclipse wyvern) and optional effect(blaster) for comparison(Note all during end phase discard for hand size of 6) of whether it made a difference.

Then comes super rejuvenation's weird ruling of being able to discard for 6 THEN draw for super rejuvenation. What does this even mean!

Esp01: I was refering to the other ruling about discarding for hand size limit FIRST then using super rejuvenation. The ruling you quoted was about using the SAME super rejuvenation twice in one end phase.

4. iFredCat: Pretty sure it's not a cost, even with LADD's new PSCT because of "and" requiring both the reduction of 500 and negation right? You can't reduce 500 without negating the activation, and you can't negate yet since the chain hasn't resolved.

Esp01: I wasn't referring to his once per chain ruling, that I know. What I was wondering was if he is ALREADY negated by those cards, would he still activate for the rest of the turn and occupy a chain link?

Eg. Opponent has facedown starlight road and other backrow plus LADD. I use pot of duality, LADD activates, then I forbidden chalice him so LADD is negated for the rest of the turn. After this I use heavy storm. As LADD is negated BUT he can still activate(right?), would LADD automatically chain to my heavy storm and thus prevent opponent from using starlight road? ie. CL1 Heavy Storm, CL2 LADD. Resolve chain, LADD resolves unsuccessfully, Heavy storm clears all backrow.

Thanks again for helping out and sorry if this is quite troublesome. Renz0kuken (talk • contribs) 14:38, May 6, 2013 (UTC)

1. Following the PSCT version - old effects are no longer in affection.

2. I will let other correcting that.

3. It's such to be that way - as other user said, you gotta reduce your hand to 6 before it can ending.

4. Like I said before, I can be wrong. And yes, I was wrong about that part. --iFredCat 14:41, May 6, 2013 (UTC)

For LADD, it would still occupy a Chain Link, regardless of whether it is negated or not. Something like Grave of the Super Ancient Organism or Number 16: Shock Master prevents activations, and in that case, it wouldn't occupy a Chain Link. 31.11.101.253 (talk) 15:14, May 6, 2013 (UTC)