Forum:Machina fort

My machina fortress is targeted by chaos sorceror's effect. Then my opponent chains PWWB on my fortress. Will I still be able to discard one card from my opponent's hand?24.193.88.193 15:43, March 6, 2010 (UTC)

The effect of "Machina Fortress" does not use the Chain, so he/she can only chain "Phoenix Wing Wind Blast" to "Chaos Sorcerer". You will still resolve the effect of "Machina Fortress" and discard one card from your opponent's hand. DemonGodAsura 20:11, March 6, 2010 (UTC)

NOTE: If "Phoenix Wing Wind Blast" is chained to "Chaos Sorcerer", then you resolve the discard effect of "Machina Fortress", then resolve the effect of "Phoenix Wing Wind Blast". The effect of "Chaos Sorcerer" will resolve without effect. DemonGodAsura 20:13, March 6, 2010 (UTC)

I see. I have more questions.

I'm trying to equip machina gearframe to my machina fortress, will my opponent's BoM as chain link 2 on gearframe stop me from doing so?

What if my opponent uses BoM as chain link 2 on my machina fortress when I try to equip gearframe to fortress?

What will happen if my opponent chains E-con as chain link 2 to gearframe's equiping effect to take control of gearframe?

What will happen if my opponent chains E-con as chain link 2 to gearframe's equiping effect to take control of fortress?

If I SS machina peacekeeper using Junk synchron's effect, can I equip peacekeeper onto my fortress? 24.193.88.193 21:44, March 6, 2010 (UTC)

1 - Correct. "Machina Fortress" will be flipped face-down, and you will be unable to equip "Machina Gearframe".

2 - "Machina Gearframe" will remain on the field; it's effect resolves with no effect.

3 & 4 - "Machine Gearframe" can only equip to a monster you control. It will resolve without effect and remain on your side of the field. If "Gearframe" is already equipped and your opponent takes control of the equipped monster, the "Gearframe" will be destroyed.

5 - No, "Junk Synchron" negates the effect that would allow "Machina Peacekeeper" to equip itself. DemonGodAsura 22:10, March 6, 2010 (UTC)

To the original question, "Machina Fortress" will not discard anything. "Machina Fortress" has a Continuous Effect, and monster need to remain face-up on the field for their Continuous Effects to be applied.

For #4, note that "Machina Fortress" is now being targeted by an opponent's effect, so you will discard a card. This isn't the case for #3, since you still control the effect.

ATEMVEGETA, for #3&4, is that last line is from testing? Since it's different, at least, in the TCG:

• If an equipped monster is taken by the opponent (such as with "Snatch Steal"), the Union Monster remains where it is, although it is still equipped to the monster, and the player who controls the Union Monster can detach it and it is Special Summoned to that player's side of the field. (So if I have "X-Head Cannon" equipped with "Z-Metal Tank", and my opponent uses "Snatch Steal" on "X-Head Cannon", on my next Main Phase I can detach "Z-Metal Tank" and it is Special Summoned onto my side of the field because I still control it.)

...and there's an OCG ruling that strongly implies that the TCG ruling is correct:

• You can activate "Equip Shot" and target a Union Monster you control that is being treated as an Equip Spell Card as long as the other target of "Equip Shot" is a proper target for the Union Monster. The Union Monster will be equipped to the opponent's monster and then the monsters will battle.

Considering how "Equip Shot" can't transfer an improper the Equip Card to an improper target...

--Deus Ex Machina (Talk) 00:53, March 7, 2010 (UTC)

I'm not in this thread! Q_Q. Wait.....Now I am! :D

By the way, it is too hard for me to test on WC10 right now. The game crashes every time I'm dueling. Especial every time I'm trying to finish testing of something :C. It's not emulated correctly.

ATEMVEGETA (Talk) 01:26, March 7, 2010 (UTC)

Oh, that was Asura/MoTD. I'm not drunk, I swear >.> --Deus Ex Machina (Talk) 01:36, March 7, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, that was me above Deus. Well, for #4, you can only equip "Machina Gearframe" to a monster you control. If the opponent takes control of the targeted monster, it is no longer a valid target and should resolve without effect. As for 3, I thought he meant that the opponent was taking his monster target, but "Gearframe" should still resolve properly then, my bad there. Also, you happen to be wrong on #4. Only the opponent will ever discard a card, and that is only if it is targeted by a Monster effect. DemonGodAsura 01:38, March 7, 2010 (UTC)

Oh, I was questioning the "If "Gearframe" is already equipped..." part. There's some really old OCG rulings saying that your answers to #3 and #4 are correct (source).

On #4, "Machina Fortress" (now under your opponent's control) being targeted by the effect of "Machina Gearframe" (under your control). Your should discard a card. (Err, unless there's some weird "Spirit Reaper"-ish thing happening, which shouldn't be the case.)

--Deus Ex Machina (Talk) 02:08, March 7, 2010 (UTC)

Well, you're right about #4. Think about the ruling that you target your opponent's "Fortress", then in chain gain control of it. Only difference is the role reversal. DemonGodAsura 02:20, March 7, 2010 (UTC)

So if I target my fortress with gearframe's equip effect, and my opponent E-cons my fortress, my opponent will be able to discard a card from my hand?24.193.88.193 03:05, March 7, 2010 (UTC)

Right, you will discard. Your opponent controls "Machina Fortress", so it now sees you as "the opponent". It is being targeted by an effect controlled by "the opponent" (you), so "the opponent" (you) discards. --Deus Ex Machina (Talk) 03:22, March 7, 2010 (UTC)

Testing with WC10 (another successful test) shows that if the monster that is equipped with Machina Gearframe switches control, then Machina Gearframe continues to be equipped to the monster. So, it agrees with the TCG ruling about Union monsters.

I have a doubt about the Machina Fortress's situation. Q_Q. I'll try to test that too!

ATEMVEGETA (Talk) 17:00, March 7, 2010 (UTC)

Well, video games shouldn't be used as ruling references, as they are often wrong. The text of "Machina Gearframe" is different from other Unions because it can only be equipped to a monster you control, whereas others merely require the equipping to be done on one of your monsters (they do not include "you control"). The targeted monster switching fields should make it an invalid target, as you do not control it. DemonGodAsura 17:17, March 7, 2010 (UTC)

World Championship games (at least WC09 and WC10) rarely make a mistake. By the way, I don't see a difference to to the "your" and "you control" effects. They look the same to me! ATEMVEGETA (Talk) 17:34, March 7, 2010 (UTC)

"Your" doesn't meant "you control". It's a slight difference. If "Z-Metal Tank" were equipped to "X-Head Cannon", it is yours. If it changes control, it is still yours. The words "you control" means that as soon as you no longer control the monster, it is an invalid target and should be destroyed. DemonGodAsura 18:15, March 7, 2010 (UTC)

Look! "Your" and "you control" mean pretty much the same thing (at least for the Union Monsters). Those terms are both referred to the "controller" of the monster, not the "owner". For example, if you take control of my X-Head Cannon, then you can equip it with your Z-Metal Tank since it is now "your" monster.

After a long time of ruling searching and testing, I ended up to this:

- If a Union Monster is already equipped to a monster and that monster's control is switched, then the Union Monster will still remain equipped to the monster.

- If a Union Monster activates its effect to be equipped to a monster, and a card like Enemy Controller is chained to its effect and switches control of that monster, then the Union Monster is destroyed by Game Mechanics when its effect resolves since it cannot be equipped to a monster "you control", "your", "on your side of the field", ect.

Still trying to test Machina Fortress's situation on WC10! Q_Q

ATEMVEGETA (Talk) 21:09, March 7, 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I finally tested Machina Fortress's situation too!

Well, my doubt was correct. If a monster activates its effect and targets Machina Fortress, and then an effect is chained and switces Machina Fortress's control, then Machina Fortress's effect is NOT applied, and neither players discards a card. This is becuase the effect that targets Machina Fortress must be "an opponent's effect" also during the effect's activation. So, in the situation with Machina Gearframe, when Machina Gearframe's effect is activated and selects Machina Fortress as a target, it is not Machina Fortress's opponent's effect, but Machina Fortress's controller's effect. So, even if Enemy Controller is chained and switces Machina Fortress's control to the opponent, and makes Machina Gearframe's effect now Machina Fortress's opponent's effect, Machina Fortress's effect will not be applied since Machina Gearframe's effect WASN'T Machina Fortress's opponent's effect during its activation.

ATEMVEGETA (Talk) 15:51, March 8, 2010 (UTC)

Huh, so there was some weird "Spirit Reaper"-ish thing going on. --Deus Ex Machina (Talk) 18:45, March 8, 2010 (UTC)