Forum:Clarify Changing Destiny

Had an argument with my brother over this. He argues that while I am picking the effect it applies from his perspective since he is the one that played it, meaning he gains life or I take damage. I say it's the other way around. Is there an official ruling on how this effect works? I've seen the semi-official ruling, but I want to know if there is a 100% official ruling on how it works.--Kirin L. (talk • contribs) 04:10, August 25, 2012 (UTC) Kirin L. (talk • contribs) 02:00, August 25, 2012‎

Sign your edits with four tildes, it's also on the forum itself, up above. So you're asking about Damage turned Heal then back to Damage? Like "Bad Reaction to Simochi" vs. "Prime Material Dragon"? You need to say the cards names, since we don't know what exact are you using. --iFredCat 02:08, August 25, 2012 (UTC)

I am asking how the effect of Changing Destiny works. He says that since he played Changing Destiny the effects would benefit him, meaning he would gain life and I would take it. I say it's the other way around, meaning I would gain the life and he would take the damage. He claims that the effect of Dark Coffin backs up his argument, but that's only because that one is worded more clearly than Changing Destiny. --Kirin L. (talk • contribs) 04:10, August 25, 2012 (UTC)

I am fairly sure that if he plays it, he either takes damage or lets you gain Life Points. Change Destiny is an anomaly as far as wording that kind of effect goes, but doing my best to translate it online, it seems that it's worded slightly differently between versions - the English card just has it as the opponent "choosing" which effect, but the Japanese version seems to state that the opponent "applies" one of the effects (yes, there is a difference). If the opponent is the one actually applying an effect then I assume it wouldn't matter who played the card; it would be read from the opponent's perspective.

Oh, and this is also how it worked in its debut in the anime (the wiki actually swaps the anime wording around to make the effect clearer, but translate the Japanese anime text and it translates mostly the same as the real card, or watch the episodes featuring the Jack/Carly duel and it becomes clear). Though yes they have altered cards from the series when they were made real, it's rare to completely subvert the effect of a card as significant as this was. PHASE (talk • contribs) 04:35, August 25, 2012 (UTC)

So with the updated card the effect would benefit him rather than the reverse?--Kirin L. (talk • contribs) 05:19, August 25, 2012 (UTC)

No, the effect still benefits the opponent of the activator. My point was that the OCG text words it more clearly not that it was a different ruling - if he activates, you get life points or he takes damage. PHASE (talk • contribs) 05:44, August 25, 2012 (UTC)

Read carefully the original card text: "Then, your opponent selectS and appliES 1 of these effects". S and ES mean the Opponent selects and opponent applies the effect.--Lê (talk • contribs) 06:13, August 25, 2012 (UTC)

The errata[1] removes the "and applies" wording. So if player 1 plays Changing Destiny, Player 2 chooses whether to have player 1 gain life or have player 2 take damage. It works in the opposite way it happened in the anime because the wording used in the anime[2] is as follows: "● Your opponent gains Life Points equal to half the ATK of the monster whose attack was negated. ● You lose Life Points equal to half the ATK of the monster whose attack was negated." While the wording on the actual card is: "● Gain Life Points equal to half the ATK of the monster whose attack was negated. ● Inflict damage to your opponent equal to half the ATK of the monster whose attack was negated." Make note of which effect is applied to the "opponent." Furnacewhelp (talk • contribs) 06:53, August 25, 2012 (UTC)

Except, if you translate the original Japanese anime text, that isn't actually what it says. It translates the same way as the real-life text when put through translators; as I said above, the wiki probably writes it like that to clear confusion. The anime text just doesn't translate to what the wiki claims it does. (And yes, I am indeed aware that online translators are often far from perfectly accurate, but I doubt they would confuse the term 'you' with the term 'the opponent' or 'the other person'.) I could be mistaken somewhere, but I've double- and triple- checked, and I have in fact used Changing Destiny before... :/ PHASE (talk • contribs) 07:34, August 25, 2012 (UTC)

So just to clarify. Player 1 activates Changing Destiny negating player 2's attack. Player 2 then chooses whether to recover their life points or inflict damage to player 1's life points equal to half of the attack of player 1's monster that just attacked. So if your brother played it, you would choose the effect. User:Kagerō Paladin 09:38, August 25, 2012 (UTC)

"the wiki probably writes it like that to clear confusion."

Exactly my point. The only way the card could work in real life the way it does in the anime is if it was worded the way the wiki says it was. In any case, the errata offers a clearer wording of how the card is supposed to be played. You always apply the errata'd text to older cards.Furnacewhelp (talk • contribs) 08:44, August 25, 2012 (UTC)

K-Paladin, no.

Player 2's monster attacks. Player 1 activates Changing Destiny. Player 2's attack is negated and the monster is switched to defense mode. Player 2 chooses which effect to activate. They can either: Have player 1 (who activated Changing Destiny) gain life points equal to half the attack points of the monster who's attack was negated, or have player 2 (who is choosing the effect) take damage equal to half the attack points of the monster who's attack was negated.Furnacewhelp (talk • contribs) 08:55, August 25, 2012 (UTC)

But that wouldn't work. If we are looking at the anime. Jack activated Changing Destiny negating Carly's attack and putting her monster in defence mode. Then Carly had to choose whether to damage Jacks life points or recover her own equal to half the monsters attack. You could look at it like Fabled Dianaira effect were it states that 'the opponent means the controller of this card' so even though the text is different, the priciple is the same. So damaging the opponents life points mean damaging the life points of the person who activated Changing Destiny. Plus your opponent is choosing the effect so the text refers to their perspective so 'you would be your opponent and 'your opponent' would be you (as in the person who activated Changing Destiny. User:Kagerō Paladin 10:20' August 25, 2012 (UTC)

Whenever a card refers to the "opponent" it refers to the player who doesn't control the card or effect being activated. The reason Fabled Dianaira makes the specification of who the term "opponent" refers to is because it changes the text of a card your opponent controls. Changing Destiny doesn't give control of the effect to the person choosing which effect to apply so any reference to the "opponent" refers to the opponent of the player who controls Changing Destiny. Again, the errata[3] clarifies this. Also, saying, "this is the way it happened in the anime." doesn't mean anything. Things often happen differently in the anime than they would in real life[4].Furnacewhelp (talk • contribs) 11:19, August 25, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, cards and rulings typically vary. I'm not one of those people who just blindly looks to a show where monsters can be played in face-up Defense immediately and everyone starts with 4000 Life Points. But the whole point of the card, with or without the anime, is that you're giving your opponent the option to choose or change their own destiny - that's the whole reason they are the ones who decide which effect instead of you, because you aren't necessarily the one whose fate will change. And that doesn't make sense thematically if both "destinies" are detrimental to them. PHASE (talk • contribs) 19:35, August 25, 2012 (UTC)

If you look at the ruling it clearly states that it is read from the opponents viewpoint. Card Rulings:Changing Destiny User:Kagerō Paladin 01:16, August 25, 2012 (UTC)

The owner of Changing Destiny takes damage, or the opponent of Changing Destiny gains Life Points. /End thread.

-Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 12:51, August 25, 2012 (UTC)

That's the Semi-official ruling, he wants an official ruling. The most current wording of Changing Destiny is as follows:

"When an opponent's monster declares an attack: Target the attacking monster; negate the attack, and if you do, change it to Defense Position and it cannot change its battle position while it is face-up on the field. Then, your opponent chooses 1 of these effects. ● You gain Life Points equal to half the target's ATK. ● Your opponent takes damage equal to half the target's ATK."

Please explain to me how that can be interpreted as being from the point of view of the person who didn't play the card.Furnacewhelp (talk • contribs) 15:11, August 25, 2012 (UTC)

"That's the semi-official ruling, he wants the official ruling" ...Um. Please don't take offense or anything, but seeing as your interpretation of the card is your interpretation based on an errata which is still ambiguous anyway (because given the conflicting opinions "choosing" could still be interpreted as being read from your opponent's perspective)... I don't think it's any more official, exactly, than the semi-official one. "Official" would be if Konami tells us that explicitly, not if you say that it obviously can only be understood the way you understand it. PHASE (talk • contribs) 19:35, August 25, 2012 (UTC)

I would also like to add that the semi-official ruling mentions Dark Coffin[5]. The wording on Dark Coffin says: "your opponent selects and executes 1 of the following effects." Changing Destiny does not say that the opponent executes the effect.Furnacewhelp (talk • contribs) 15:46, August 25, 2012 (UTC)

I just tested Change Destiny in WC2010. Player 1 activates it, Player 1 takes damage or Player 2 gains Life Points. PHASE (talk • contribs) 19:17, August 25, 2012 (UTC)

My comment was on WC11. -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 01:18, August 26, 2012 (UTC)

The errata was made in May of this year. The Semi official ruling and WC2010 were both made using the alternate wording that included the provision that the opponent applies the effect. I can see how that could be interpreted as the effect being played from the opponent's perspective. But when the errata removed the phrase "and applies" from the card, the only remaining power the opponent has over the card is to choose which effect the owner of the card will activate. Again, the Semi Official ruling uses the card Dark Coffin as an example to confirm the ruling. But Dark Coffin has the provision that the opponent, "Chooses and executes" the effect while Changing Destiny only has the opponent choose the effect.Furnacewhelp (talk • contribs) 01:23, August 26, 2012 (UTC)

As far as I know, Change Destiny had its text altered to match Problem-Solving Card Text which is TCG only, not to change the effect. OCG text is still exactly the same, so for them the effect is unchanged; if it hasn't changed for them, it won't have changed for us unless Konami says it has. PHASE (talk • contribs) 02:31, August 26, 2012 (UTC)

Changing of card text is not changing of effect in most cases. Konami combines "selects and applies" to "chooses" just to save the ink.--Lê (talk • contribs) 05:15, August 26, 2012 (UTC)

I checked the official problem solving card text PDF[6] and didn't see that change included in the update. Also, if they did intend "chooses" to be interpreted as "selects and applies," I don't see why they would make that change to Changing Destiny and not other cards like it. It doesn't make sense that they would change it to an even more ambiguous terminology on the card instead of simplifying it's meaning, by giving it a wording like Dark Coffin, or adding an explanation of which player is defined as the opponent like Fabled Dianaira. Are there any other cards with wording like Changing Destiny where the word "choose" is used in the same way?Furnacewhelp (talk • contribs) 06:51, August 26, 2012 (UTC)

Oh, I admit I forgot there was an actual article on PSCD to reference. Do note, though, that the only effects directly comparable to Change Destiny (as far as opponents choosing effects) are Half or Nothing and Dark Coffin (feel free to correct me on that though, I might be forgetting something).

In other news, it occurred to me to run Half or Nothing's Japanese text through a translator; apparently, it was originally worded exactly like Change Destiny as far as perspective goes. The OCG card actually reads from the opponent's perspective, saying that "your" monsters' ATK are halved in reference to the opponent of Half or Nothing's owner. If I'm understanding this correctly, this dispute basically boils down to inconsistent localization; Half or Nothing and Changing Destiny were supposed to be worded the same way, but they reworded Half or Nothing for TCG without doing the same for Changing Destiny when it was released. PHASE (talk • contribs) 07:25, August 26, 2012 (UTC)

So, have we come to the conclusion of this debate? Have we reached the conclusion that the effect of Changing Destiny has been misinterpreted and it's true effect causes the player who controls Changing Destiny to gain life rather than their opponent?Furnacewhelp (talk • contribs) 11:40, August 26, 2012 (UTC)

No, because that is wrong. I can see your reasoning but the semi-official ruling states that it is read from your opponents point of view and I'm sorry but that's as close to the official ruling your going to get. Your reasoning is based on how you interpret the card text. User:Kagerō Paladin 04:23, August 26, 2012 (UTC)

@Furnacewhelp: No, you don't understand my point. I'll break it down more clearly:

Every single card that works like Changing Destiny - in this case, Dark Coffin and Half or Nothing, which are all worded the SAME WAY on the OCG cards - is meant to be read from the opponent's perspective. Dark Coffin is consistent with this. However, Half or Nothing changed to become the user's perspective for TCG without changing what the effect actually did. So Changing Destiny is supposed to be read from the opponent's perspective because all other cards which work the same way are supposed to.

In short, TCG Dark Coffin and OCG of all three cards (opponent's perspective) is the rule and TCG Half or Nothing (user's perspective) is the exception. PHASE (talk • contribs) 18:09, August 26, 2012 (UTC)

"Changing Destiny has been misinterpreted"??? Misinterpreted from what? Its OCG can confirm this, WC confimed this, its original text (and current text too) confirmed this. The only one misinterpreting here is you, Furnacewhelp.

And if Konami change their mind and want to change its effect, they would writte a big article on their official website, like "HOT!!! WE CHANGE CHANGING DESTINY'S EFFECT. PLEASE ATTENTION!!!", and report it to every duelists, not just simply change "selects and applies" to "chooses".--Lê (talk • contribs) 23:20, August 26, 2012 (UTC)

I just noticed something, the inclusion of the words "they" and "their" on both Dark Coffin and Half or Nothing. They are both used in reference to the opponent being the target of the effect. Changing Destiny uses the word "you." On every other card in existence when the word "you" is used it is referencing the controller of that card. Why is it in this instance, they would use the word "you" to reference the opponent rather than the word "they?"Furnacewhelp (talk • contribs) 02:00, August 27, 2012 (UTC)

... Furnacewhelp, you didn't read what I wrote AT ALL, did you? Look up and I explained everything. It's a TCG inconsistency. OCG has all three cards using "you" to mean the opponent, it's just that Changing Destiny is the only one which had the intended wording left alone while the other two got their wording changed. PHASE (talk • contribs) 03:26, August 27, 2012 (UTC)