Forum:CardTable2 discussion

For anyone interested, I have finally deployed the styles for the CardTable2 update, meaning it's easy(er) for anyone to test it now:


 * 1) Clear your browser's cache to be sure you have the styles.
 * 2) Visit a random card article (you can use this link), and open it in a second tab (you should be able to right-click the "Edit" button and click "Open in new tab" or your browser's equivalent).
 * 3) If you haven't already, in one of the tabs, edit the card page. Change the   line to , and preview the page.
 * 4) Switch back and forth between the two tabs, comparing information in the tables.
 * 5) When you note discrepancies, [ start a new section] on this page, with a link to the card page as the section header, and list the differences you find. Some things that should not be listed:
 * 6) * The different overall appearance of the table - I'll take suggestions on improving the style, and you can report stuff you genuinely believe to be bugs (if you do so, note the exact version of browser, operating system, and screen resolution that you're using), but the overall look is what is going to be deployed.
 * 7) * Things that are obviously bugs in the current version of CardTable2 which are fixed in the sandbox version. If you're not sure, list them anyways.
 * 8) * The much more (vertically) compact statuses table - the new version fills one row completely before starting another row, and empty sections are completely hidden.
 * 9) * Redlinked categories - these are maintenance categories, and will be created as hidden categories when the new version is deployed.

You should not save any page using the sandbox version, and I'd appreciate testing in both the Wikia and Monobook skins, for those that know how to switch between them.

Comments/suggestions/discussion
Is the line at the bottom of the table meant to be missing? (It was there in the last card table). -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 08:41, March 2, 2011 (UTC)


 * Nope, that's a known display bug on some browsers (some other browsers have the bottom line on the right two columns missing instead, when the right columns are shorter than the image column =/ ). 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 09:04, March 2, 2011 (UTC)

Whenever I click on a link to expand a list (such as a list of the sets a card comes in) on its card page, my browser automatically scrolls back to the top of the page, which I find very annoying. Is it a problem with my browser, or an issue with the new layout of the site? In the latter case, when do you plan to fix it? – AtmaX 02:22, March 7, 2011 (UTC)


 * That's a known issue, and unrelated to the template update. I don't know what's causing it, exactly, otherwise it'd have been fixed by now. =/ 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 03:48, March 7, 2011 (UTC)

I was about to put this in Template talk:CardTable2, but since it it says 'suggestions' here, I'll put it here for now.
 * 1) Can Maintenance Costs be made into an 'effect type' as discussed at Forum:Improving "Card Effect Type(s):"? (Opinions on the other ideas are also appreciated)
 * 2) For Neo-Spacian Marine Dolphin and Neo-Spacian Twinkle Moss, a Condition is its first effect, and the 2nd effect is the Summoning Condition. However, (not sure if it's a bug) Summoning Condition does not appear on the page if it isn't listed as the 1st effect type, can this be fixed? -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 00:41, March 23, 2011 (UTC)


 * Perhaps it'd be better to introduce "cost" or "condition" parameters?
 * I think that is intentional, but I've never understood it myself, either. If Delt has no complaints, I'll change up the effect parameters so that any effect type can be used for any of the parameters, instead of being limited after the first parameter. 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 03:24, March 23, 2011 (UTC)


 * 1. "Condition" is already in the template. However, "Cost" (which is also already in the template) is different from "Maintenance Cost". Costs are things you pay during activation (e.g. Trade-In) and maintenance costs (similar to Summoning Conditions) is a type of Condition, and is paid only when the card says so, and generally, you need to pay multiple times if you want to keep the card on the field (e.g. Koa'ki Meiru Urnight)
 * Also, "Maintenance Cost" should currently be the last major 'effect' type that is distinctively mentioned in rulings, that isn't in the template.
 * 2. Alright. -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 08:36, March 30, 2011 (UTC)


 * ^ Bump this. -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 00:06, April 15, 2011 (UTC)

Any thoughts on changing the background for the card image cell to a light gray (something along the lines of DDDDFF )? Playing around with it in Chrome's element inspector, it's a much nicer effect than the current white background, IMO. -- as 66.116.9.175 (talk) 21:55, April 11, 2011 (UTC)


 * Can you provide a screenshot of what it looks like? similar to the one above so it can be compared? -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 00:03, April 15, 2011 (UTC)

Bug reports
The ruby text under the card name on some pages displays an error similar to this: "" 邪( じゃ)龍(< /rp>りゅう) アナンタ" cannot be used as a page name in this wiki." - Silver Glaceon (talk • contribs) 01:29, March 16, 2011 (UTC)


 * That's not related to the CardTable2 updates. The extension Semantic MediaWiki is acting buggy. It's treating some things that are supposed to be text as pagenames. Since all those tags can't be used in a page, that error message is given. It's the same reason a lot of things which aren't supposed to be linked are appearing as red links. The problem is being looked at however. -- Deltaneos (talk) 01:35, March 16, 2011 (UTC)


 * Actually, it's just a cache problem now. If you add ?action=purge to the end of the url of an affected page it will fix the ruby text.
 * Other things that are appearing as red links need the cache cleared on their property (null edit the property) first. You don't have to understand that part. -- Deltaneos (talk) 01:40, March 16, 2011 (UTC)

Lists of tuner is just showing 4 results and no further results button. —This unsigned comment was made by Dzavaba (talk • contribs) 22:45, 2011 March 22


 * 1) On Talk Pages and Forum Pages, be sure to sign your posts.
 * 2) It's not really a card table problem:
 * As with all other lists, Medium::TCG||OCG is broken, so just replace it with Class 1::Official
 * For some reason, we can't decide whether to call them 'Tuner Monster' or 'Tuner Monsters' when searching for them, so for now, I've changed it so that it includes both. -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 00:41, March 23, 2011 (UTC)


 * We might currently have a bug with either SMW or page move caching. It's necessary to use both Tuner Monster and Tuner Monsters at the moment, since some pages use the singular and some the plural (another cache issue). In the past, if you used a redirect as value (only if the property is Type:Page) it looked at the page the redirect points to, so Monster Type::Tuner Monsters and Monster Type::Tuner Monster should be the same in queries and in assigning properties to pages. It shouldn't be necessary to use |Tuner Monster. -- Deltaneos (talk) 01:28, March 23, 2011 (UTC)


 * That being said, I've changed CardTable2 to use the singular names for all card types (well, I may have managed to miss one or two cases, but I got the majority, and the most commonly-used ones). 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 03:26, March 23, 2011 (UTC)

For some reason, if the only effect of a monster is either a Condition Effect (e.g. Cyber Harpie Lady) or a Quick Effect (e.g. Blackwing - Kalut the Moon Shadow), the card won't show up on SMW searches. -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 13:11, April 9, 2011 (UTC)


 * Is this for a specific query or when searching for anything? I've tried a few searches for "Cyber Harpie Lady" and she showed up each time. -- Deltaneos (talk) 13:35, April 9, 2011 (UTC)


 * It's while searching for a specific effect types (like in the links; Condition Effect and List of Quick Effect Monster Cards)
 * and also, if it was asked to return what effect type it has, it would show up as nothing. I was trying to make a list of all effect monsters and their effects so I can quickly check if we had them right.
 * From that search, Barrier Resonator, Blackwing - Calima the Haze, etc don't return their effect types. -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 13:41, April 9, 2011 (UTC)


 * It's still like that, so I don't think it's a temporary glitch. -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 00:06, April 15, 2011 (UTC)


 * Ok, I only just noticed it, but this seems to have been fixed.
 * The only problem now is that for the cards like Neo-Spacian Twinkle Moss, if 'Summon' is not first, it will link to 'Summon Effect' instead of 'Summon Condition'. -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 13:05, June 23, 2011 (UTC)


 * Should be fixed now; I just allowed any of the effectN parameters to have any supported value. On that note, it may be possible to combine them all into a single "effect" parameter and use  to sort them out. Hmm... 「 ダイノ ガイ  千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 17:50, June 23, 2011 (UTC)


 * So... arrays would mean that it will be possible to have any number of effect types, without having to repeat that paragraph code for each effect type?
 * Also, if I'm not mistaken, Meklord Emperor Wisel has 5 different effects, but CardTable2 can only go up to 4 at the moment. -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 07:39, June 26, 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, that's exactly what it means - you could have something like . ;) 「 ダイノ ガイ  千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 06:28, June 27, 2011 (UTC)

Effect parameter unification

 * Moved from User talk:Cheesedude

You can now add an unlimited number of effect tags to cards via use of the  parameter; this is ultimately intended to deprecate the existent   parameters and usage is the same as for the anime and manga appearances templates - each effect gets separated by a comma-space (e.g.  ). Note that I haven't done anything similar for   yet, so don't try that there. Also, could you tell me if this list of possible values is complete: None, ???, Condition, Continuous, Flip, Ignition, Lingering, Maintenance Cost, Quick, Summon, Trigger? Have fun now! =D I'm telling you this because as I recall, you do a reasonable amount of work with tagging effect types; if this isn't the case, you can ignore this or repost it on the talk pages of editors who do do such work. ;) 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 21:03, August 8, 2011 (UTC)


 * Cool. I'll start implementing that as I edit for other reasons then. And no, I don't add effect types. I do so for other things like "summon1", "mst1", etc, but I don't actually know the difference between most effect types (in fact, I think I may have added "Trigger" to a few non-monster card articles before I realized it was a monster only effect). I would contact Falzar if I were you. Cheesedude (talk • contribs) 21:12, August 8, 2011 (UTC)


 * And so you did, even though you're not me. XD I really should try paying a bit more attention to who tends to edit what around here... ;P 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000


 * Dino's correct, as I don't get a comment back from Falzar lately. -- F  r  e  d  C  a  t  21:29, August 8, 2011 (UTC)


 * Wel, you did say in your original post to post it somewhere else. So I did. I think that LastMinute also does some work in that area. Cheesedude (talk • contribs) 23:38, August 8, 2011 (UTC)


 * There's a reason why I put a clock on my usertalk page...
 * Yay, finally.
 * It's probably worth doing to the other types as well ("summon1", "mst1").
 * Trade-In has Cost, which ought to be used more for Spells and Traps, since there were no objections last time I asked... not sure if it would be worth doing to monsters, as that would make their lists long and confusing.
 * Are you going to bot the change from effectN --> effect?
 * What would happen to SMW searches if you put something like Continuous, Continuous? I've got a list of ~450 monsters with effects that have multiple effects with duplicate effect types. The current list 1 of each effect type is bound to be confusing to some people. (edit:~450 should be the almost all, if not all, of them) -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 01:20, August 9, 2011 (UTC)


 * Just to note, "summon" is already a parameter, but it's used only on Token Monster pages, so that will have be renamed if do this for the rest. Cheesedude (talk • contribs) 04:09, August 9, 2011 (UTC)


 * I'll need a complete list of possible values for each additional parameter group I'm to update like this (SMW doesn't have any easy way of just outputting a given property's used values that I've ever found =P ), so that I can make sure the delimiter character isn't used in any of those values, and as Cheesedude pointed out, we'll also have to figure out what to do when we have conflicting parameters.
 * I've been considering just rolling the "effectstN" parameters in with "effect"/"effectN" for at least a bit now... What're your thoughts on that, Falzar?
 * Yes, this'll definitely be bot work - a simple, straightforward, mind-numbingly repetitive job. =)
 * TBH, I don't really know. I don't think it will change SMW queries at all, but the best way to find out would just be to test it out. 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 16:45, August 10, 2011 (UTC)


 * Didn't have time to reply to this last time I was on; lets just say, I don't like the timetable for this semester; literally full days, with a tiny break on Wednesday and Thursday; and almost nothing on 2 other days.
 * Cheesedude doesn't mind us keeping this discussion on this one page right?
 * For monster effect types, would it work if you get a SMW query that lists every card and its effect type; then replace all occurrences in the list above (and, line breaks and the card names) ? Assuming that it does show everything that was used, after doing that, I ended up with an empty list, which means everything got covered; however, there were no ??? found. (EDIT: Test shows that putting something random also shows up on the list everything method, so we should have everything listed there)
 * For S/T effect types; I couldn't figure out what to use to list them; (for monster effect types, it's |?Effect type), the Special:Browse page didn't show anything I could use either.
 * So you're asking if we should keep EffectN for a while? If the SMW searches covers both using the same queries, then it shouldn't really matter.
 * Just noticed that the 'Cost' one that I mentioned is in 'effectstN', which is different to what monsters use. (striked out above comment.)
 * I'll test it on Crystal Beast Amethyst Cat; the one Deus Ex Machina used as the example. (EDIT: Your're right, on the page it'll show as 2 separate effect types, but on the search, it shows up as 1, so it works as it was intended) -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 12:25, August 11, 2011 (UTC)


 * I feel your pain there. Or rather I have in the past and will again in about two weeks. My schedule this coming semester isn't too great either.
 * No, I don't. Go ahead. Cheesedude (talk • contribs) 16:14, August 11, 2011 (UTC)


 * Good luck with schooling Uni; don't feel too bad if you make me wait for replies (there's plenty else to keep me busy in the meantime). ;)
 * It's rather gimmicky, but could work. What's really needed is a built-in way to query the unique values of a given property.
 * S/T effect types don't currently get put in a property; they just get linked. The possible values are "Act" (for Activation Requirements), "Cost" (for Costs), "Effect" (for Card Effects), and "Lingering" (for Lingering Effects); all other values are ignored. I don't see any reason not to reuse Property:Effect type for them, though.
 * No, I'm asking if we shouldn't just combine the monster and S/T effect stuff into (ultimately) the one "effect" parameter. The "effectN" parameters being left in is a different matter, and will be the case until all occurrences have been updated. 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 17:44, August 11, 2011 (UTC)


 * *Uni... eh... close enough :P
 * Well, if we don't need people to add Activation condition, costs, etc to monster effect types, then I think it's probably better to separate the monster effect types and S/T effect types.
 * Is there a way to add a comment to the monster effect types without the whole thing being changed into the query? like on Trap Reactor・Y FI, currently it's just a hidden message with
 * Ignition-like, Quick-like and Trigger-like effects of S/T cards might be worth mentioning as well.
 * -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 02:19, August 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * It wouldn't be that hard to limit usable values according to the card type while using the same parameter for all of them, I think. I'm aiming to simplify use here; you can't get much simpler than a single parameter. ;)
 * Let me put it this way, do such comments affect anything now? ;)
 * Should those three be added as explicit S/T effect types, and if so, where should they link? 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 03:47, August 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * ... I still think it's better to move this to Forum:CardTable2 discussion...
 * Didn't know you could do that; if that's the case, then sure.
 * The hidden message doesn't affect SMW searches, but I was thinking that it might be better if you could see the message without going into edit mode; although the Reactors are the only ones which need to do that at the moment.
 * I thought we had pages for all of them, but we didn't, the only one we have is Continuous Trap Cards with Quick-like Effects.... guess I'll have to make pages for them some time; but I'm thinking that it will be better if we just shorten the page names to just Ignition-like, Quick-like and Trigger-like, just like how the rulings have them.
 * They are mainly for Spell/Trap Cards with Continuous-like properties, that would be Field Spells, Equip Spells and Continuous S/T. I'll try list all of them with at least 1 example for each:
 * Messenger of Peace - Continuous, Maintenance Cost
 * Fairy Box - Trigger-like, Maintenance Cost
 * Call of the Mummy - Ignition-like
 * Stumbling - Trigger-like
 * and then the newer cards:
 * Royal Oppression - Quick-like
 * Black Garden - Trigger-like, Ignition-like
 * Ojama Country - Ignition-like, Continuous
 * Mark of the Rose - Cost, Continuous, Trigger-like, Trigger-like
 * There are others like Dawn of the Herald; which makes things even harder, I think it would be: Condition, Effect, Trigger... (I can see why we don't use Cost and Activation Requirements for monster effects now...)
 * Ritual of Grace - Condition, Effect, Ignition (lingering is created by the Ignition)
 * Iron Core of Koa'ki Meiru - Trigger-like
 * Similar to monster effects, I don't think lingering is worth being mentioned on its own, as (I think) it is always created by some other effect, and not something on its own. -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 08:27, August 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * That's the first I've heard you mention it, but in retrospect, yeah, I should've posted the main part of my op there and then just pointed to it... Feel free to move this whole thing there if you'd like (though maybe leave a pointer to it from here? how do you want it, Cheesedude?). =)
 * Yay parameter unification! =D
 * Hmm... I'm really not sure of any good way to do so. With only one group of cards needing it at the moment, though, is it something we want to try to do anyways?
 * Would we really need to note Conditions now, what with the Problem-Solving Card Text update and everything?
 * So, the current list for S/T cards is Continuous, Maintenance, Cost, Effect, Trigger(-like), Ignition(-like), and Quick-like, right? You think we don't need Lingering any more? 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 08:50, August 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * I'll use an example for a reason:
 * Meklord Emperor Skiel being:
 * Summon Condition, Trigger, Continuous, Ignition, Continuous, Ignition
 * ought to be clear and enough; but allowing the S/T variables into the monster variables might make a few people want to make it something like:
 * Summon Condition, Summon Condition, Activation Requirement, Trigger, Continuous, Condition, Ignition, Continuous, Cost, Ignition.
 * Which is right, but overly redundant and exceedingly confusing.
 * Imo, yes, Lingering shouldn't be necessary for the reason mentioned above ; except on Tokens. But I'd like more opinions on this.
 * It's kinda like "Once per turn, you can select 1 monster on the field and destroy it." = "Ignition" vs. "Condition/Ignition".
 * -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 09:21, August 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * And then I come across Limiter Removal and Book of Eclipse which, in a separate sentence, say "During the End Phase, ..." = Lingering.
 * So, for things like Brain Control which says "Take control of it until the End Phase."; I think it's not necessary to split it into Effect/Lingering. This is what I'd like more opinions on. -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 11:55, August 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * Move it if you like, it would allow others to comment more effectively. Though I also somehow doubt anyone else has much to say, honestly. Cheesedude (talk • contribs) 15:55, August 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * (Indent reset) Moved. Maybe now we can goad Delt into saying something? =D
 * You don't have to worry about Monster and S/T values getting used side-by-side, it should be quite easy to prevent that altogether. =)
 * This all means the list is now Activation, Continuous, Maintenance, Cost, Effect, Lingering, Trigger(-like), Ignition(-like), and Quick-like, right? Do you only need Trigger-like and Ignition-like, or do you also need Trigger and Ignition? 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 17:51, August 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * @ reactors; It's not too important in terms of gameplay, so it could be left like that for now. I'll bring it up again if there is a case that does affect gameplay.
 * The full list should be;
 * All
 * Condition, Lingering, Maintenance Cost, Continuous
 * Monsters only
 * Flip, Ignition, Quick, Summon, Trigger
 * Spell and Trap only
 * Ignition-like, Quick-like, Trigger-like, Act, Cost, Effect
 * Listed where it would be used in as well for reference later on.
 * -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 02:19, August 13, 2011 (UTC)