Forum:Reasons why cards are Forbidden/Limited/Archive 3

March 2013
The March 2013 banlist has been leaked on Shriek news. It's also on the Forum:March 2013 Banlist Predictions page. Here is everything:

Banned: Limited: Semi-Limited: Unlimited:
 * Sangan
 * Wind-up Carrier Zenmaighty
 * Wind-up Magician
 * One day of Peace
 * Solemn Warning
 * Advanced Ritual Art
 * Thunder King Rai-oh
 * Tsukuyomi
 * Spore
 * Blackwing - Kalut the moon shadow
 * Lumina, Lightsworn Summoner
 * Shien's Smoke Signal
 * Mind Crush

It won't be official until March 1st, but just posed it as a heads up. Don't change anything until then. 24.12.202.163 (talk) 16:40, February 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * And the list is now TCG official (http://www.yugioh-card.com/en/limited/index.html). Updated everything rescently, but not sure about where some cards should go, such as

Any thoughts on some of these? 24.12.202.163 (talk) 17:57, February 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * Thunder King - Maybe, say, Low Chance of ↓
 * Rabbit - Still not sure? maybe Low chance of ↑?
 * Tsukuyomi - perhaps Low Chance of ↓
 * Advanced Ritual Art - Not really sure on this one.
 * Smoke signal - maybe =, Low chance of ↑

Some opinion changes
I'd like to say Dark Strike Fighter should never come back, because it's too powerful. If you drop it in a Hazy deck, it's game over (As long as there's Rekindling around). I doubt this will be changed, but again, just an opinion.

I don't see why DMoC should remain banned, as the only reason why he's banned is because of the Dimension Fusion loop, and that card is banned for good. So I think DMoC has a low chance of getting himself unbanned, and if he gets unbanned, then Dimension Fusion should never come back. (Even without DMoC, this card is too powerful)

Black Luster Soldier, IMO, isn't going to get hit anytime soon, so I guess it should stay at 1 for now. (But, chances are, it's going to get banned eventually)

Dark Armed should stay at one, it's only broken when there's more than one copy. However, it's not powerful enough to get himself banned.

Deck Devastation Virus is fine at 3, although it can be better than Crush Card Virus, as it takes out a lot of important cards (I.e: Tour guide, Rescue Rabbit, ect...)

24.164.39.82 (talk) 22:04, February 22, 2013 (UTC) Anonymous

I'm not sure what should be on the unsure cards, since they could go either way, though most of them will probrably come down from where they are, except for Rabbit.

I wouldn't want to say DSF is never, ever going to come back, but chances are it won't happen for a while no matter what, if ever. He (along with some former cards and other cards that would folow) went from 3 to 0 instantly. Trying him at one first would've probrably been a better move back then, but I personally don't think DSF is coming back either way.

BLS will probrably get re-banned someday, but probrably not until Konami designs some stupid card that can overly-abuse him (like Uniflora, Mythical Beast of the Forest for Rescue Cat...main reason why it's never coming back). I agree DAD is fine where he is, so long as some old cards (like the aforementioned D-Fusion), don't come back.

DMoC can't come back because there's always going to be some ridiculous OTK/FTK loop someone comes up with him. Being able to reuse a spell card no one wants to see more than once per duel (and at no cost with DMoC) is gamebreaking enough as it is, but there are countless ways to special summon him; cards like Escape from the Dark Dimension, Different Dimension Reincarnation, Return from the Different Dimension, Monster Reborn (then return Reborn to your hand)...it doesn't matter if Dimension Fusion is banned, someone will find a way to spam/abuse DMoC if he comes back, and we're back to square one again. As a matter of fact, with Prophecies getting stronger at the moment due to the release of the Divine Judgment of the Spellbooks spell card, I personally would call DMoC a never.

I could see Deck Devy getting hit again at some point, due to the increasing number of decks that rely on weaker monsters (Sangan ban, hint hint), but the only deck it's really seen in is Dark Worlds, which aren't topping anyways. If it sees more play in other decks which are topping I think a chance of going up would be necessary for Deck Devy. 98.206.70.2 (talk) 00:42, February 23, 2013 (UTC)

Mass Driver is banned, Dark Strike is a Mass Driver/Cannon Soldier on steroids. And with decks that can drop high level monsters without a sweat drop (Example: Haze decks), it should stay banned.

As for DMoC: Dimension Fusion can return to the hand via DMoC's effect, this is what made him overpowered. Escape from the Dark Dimension is a trap, and it's definitely not useful. Dimension Reincarnation has a discard cost, it still won't make any difference as it can't create a loop. Return is the exact same reason for Escape, it's a trap card; not a spell card. How could you abuse Reborn if DMoC is banished when it leaves the field? Imperial Iron Wall is just a silly logic: If that's what you're saying, then by that logic: Imperial Iron Wall is broken; Not DMoC (Quillbot Hedgehog loop?). Those are just silly reasons, no offense. As for the Prophecies growing powerful, we'll just see when they're topping, but this lately: It isn't. (Mainly because they're ridiculously expensive) I've checked out Spellbook of Judgment, still no differences on DMoC's major impact.

I doubt DDV will get hit, as it's a replacement for CCV. But yeah, Dark World are one of the few decks that uses DDV. Still don't think it will ever get hit IMO. 24.164.39.82 (talk) 03:59, February 23, 2013 (UTC) Anonymous
 * I'm not exactly saying DMoC will be abused by every one of those cards, but my point is, it creates many deadly loops and combos by itself, and someone will, and probrably won't be afraid to, find a way to spam him even without Dimension Fusion. I mean, being able to reuse any one of your limited spells for free (Avarice, Storm, Hole, Reborn, Mind Control, Book of Moon, Allure of Darkness, ect) is something I (and many others) just can't get over. D-Fusion can't create as many loops with DMoC anyways since 2000 LP is quite a hefty cost to use it and your opponent may benefit from it too. Not to say D-Fusion isn't broken (it shouldn't come back), but just because D-Fusion is banned doesn't mean DMoC isn't broken anymore. The Imperial Iron Wall+DMoC+Monster Reborn+Cannon Soldier otk is just one of many otk's/loops I can see him doing if he comes back (again, not saying Iron Wall is the problem, but DMoC is). And yes DDR has a discard cost, but DMoC then returns a spell card from your graveyard to your hand, so it basically becomes a costless card that can revive him, much better than D-Fusion. I'd be more than happy to run 3 of those if DMoC came back. While Prophecy decks are expensive, I don't want to think DMoC won't have a major impact on the deck because it probrably will, most of us don't see it though. 98.206.70.2 (talk) 13:24, February 23, 2013 (UTC)

How would it combo and loop itself? Again, I still see no point of his abuse. All of the cards that can SS monsters from the banished zone is just a silly reason: I don't see how any of them can create FTK/OTKs with DMoC. You can't reuse a lot of limited spell cards for "free", he needs to be tribute summon or ss using certain cards. Besides, Magical Stone Excavation is a better option than DMoC's effect, and it's not even banned (But Semi-Limited of course). Any cards that Special summons him requires a cost: DoL&D needs a Dark Magician on the field (Or someone who's named is Dark Magician); A crap ton of cards that can summon him NEEDS a cost. And, about D-Fusion's cost: People used Spell Economics to bypass his cost, part of the reasons why people abuse the crap out of him. Why are you bringing up the Imperial Iron Wall and Reborn argument? Ever heard of a Quillbolt Loop? http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Quillbolt_Loop Again, by that logic, Imperial Iron Wall is broken; Not DMoC. That, and that loop is too slow for the meta. Dimension Reincarnation ITSELF is an EQUIP spell card, yes, it brings back a spell card as a replacement for the cost, but you can't keep doing the same move every time like D-Fusion. Prophecies are powerful, that I have to agree with, but they're quite slow, not even DMoC can help speed up the deck. (Mainly because most of the spells has a "Activate this card once per turn" condition)

Overall, DMoC is still slow for the current meta, and I doubt he would become broken. And yes, someone will try to find a way to make him deadly, but, guaranteed, they will fail. 24.164.39.82 (talk) 14:41, February 23, 2013 (UTC) Anonymous
 * Just to clarify what I said, I never said people WOULD definitely use those cards for sure if DMoC did return, but my point was DMoC isn't "not good anymore" just because D-Fusion is banned. No one runs Magical Stone Excavation anymore; Discarding 2 cards from your hand to use it is a cost that is too steep for most of today's decks to handle; it's probrably going to come up to 3 at some point in the future, maybe September 2013 format. I personally have a hard time believing there won't be something gamebreaking about a powerful lv 8 monster that let's you reuse any spell card from your graveyard every time it's special summoned, and banishes any monster it destroys in battle. I agree that DMoC would not be as broken as he was before with Dimension Fusion now banned, but that doesn't mean DMoC can come back and not impact the meta that much. You may not see it, but there is going to be some annoying loop someone will come up with DMoC if he comes back, and I would rather not find out what it is. The whole point behind this was in the list above, DMoC is listed as "Very Low". Would you prefer to change that to "Low" instead? I know he wouldn't be as good as he was before, but again, that doesn't mean he "wouldn't be good" if he came back. 98.206.70.2 (talk) 19:41, February 23, 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I'm aware that very few people runs Magical Stone these days, I'm just saying it's basically like DMoC, but a better option to regain/reuse spells than him. All what I'm trying to say, is that DMoC only had a single powerful card that can create his loop. Besides, he's not a Chaos Emperor Dragon; he's just another monster that's too slow and isn't broken for this current meta. I've never said he's not a good monster though; I'm just saying, that he isn't going to create an impact to the meta now. Besides, DMoC is banished when he leaves, and there's very little cards that can bring him back from the banished zone, so like I said: Making a loop with DMoC again is going to be IMPOSSIBLE, and even if it's possible, it's definitely going to be extremely slow. In other words: Whoever will try to find a way to create a "new" DMoC loop... well... good luck for him/her. 24.164.39.82 (talk) 00:52, February 24, 2013 (UTC) Anonymous
 * It isn't impossible to create loops with DMoC, but you're right, it would be slow. One example of an FTK loop with him would be something like this:


 * On your first turn, Hand Destruction DMoC and Mezuki. Then normal summon Cannon Soldier and activate Zombie World. Banish Mezuki from your grave to bring DMoC back, tribute DMoc with Cannon Soldier (DMoC is banished) to do 500 damage. Then activate Burial from the different Dimension to return DMoC and Mezuki to your graveyard. Banish Mezuki again to bring DMoC back again, return Burial to your hand with DMoC's effect, tribute him again with Cannon Soldier for 500 more damage, repeat until Victory.

Again, such a loop is situational and not always consistent (like the Ouroboros hand loop in six sams), but it still exists nontheless and Konami hates OTK's and FTK's (well, we all do), so they hit the cards that can do the loops. Hell Magician of Faith is more likely to be unbanned than DMoC because flip effect monsters will most likely be blown up before they get a chance to use their effects in today's metagame. DMoC is spammable and can create annoying loops with certain spell cards, and even though DMoC may come back, I wouldn't expect it to happen myself nontheless. 98.206.70.2 (talk) 14:38, February 24, 2013 (UTC)

You'd be lucky if you managed to draw Zombie World, DMoC, Mezuki, Hand Destruction, and Burial from the DD. DMoC, Mezuki, and Burial are at ONE (Well... if DMoC will ever get unbanned, then it will most likely go to 1), and you have a ratio of 3/40 chance of drawing the cards you needed. That's like saying I can draw all 5 pieces of Exodia first turn. I'm going to keep saying this for the last time: It's IMPOSSIBLE to create a DMoC loop now. Even if there are cards that can create a DMoC loop, it's just going to become too slow for the current meta. Besides, we have a ton of loops that are faster and powerful than DMoC, like the Evigiski Mind Augus, 2 Garunix, and even the Lightpulsar + REDMD. So I'll stop repeating this, until it's understood. Besides, he isn't a threat to the Meta, he isn't a Chaos Emperor Dragon, and Magician of Fate is faster on retrieving spell cards from the Graveyard than DMoC. (Especially when Tsukuyomi is unbanned.) So it wouldn't matter HOW you can create his loop, but rather WHEN. Yet, I keep saying this over and over again: There's only FEW cards that can bring DMoC back from the graveyard, so there's still no evidence that he can create havoc in the meta. No more, and no less. 24.164.39.82 (talk) 16:39, February 24, 2013 (UTC) Anonymous
 * You're right, I agree with you on the fact if someone tried to create a new spell loop with DMoC it most likely wouldn't be very consistent. However, that doesn't mean they don't exist. However, that's only my opinion, and my opinion is my own. I have to disagree with your comment on Magician of Faith though; you're much more likely to create a spell loop with DMoC than you are with Magician of Faith (no one even runs Tsukuyomi to begin with, so pointless to mention it), and it could die by a card effect (no surprise in today's meta) before it's flipped anyways. The Shallow Grave and Book of Taiyou also exist for Magician of Faith, but like Tsukuyomi, no one runs them in the first place either. 98.206.70.2 (talk) 22:49, February 24, 2013 (UTC)

Ceasefire
Only problem I have with this is that it says Ceasefire needs a face-down monster to be activated, which isn't true. All the rulings I've found say it can be used for a face-up or face-down monster. --MasterMarik (talk • contribs) 20:49, March 11, 2013 (UTC)

Undecided cards
Does anyone have opinions on what should go in the undecided cards? Like T.G. Striker or Tsukuyomi or Thunder King? I'd say all of them with a chance of coming down, but I'm not sure if that's what'll happen to T-King. 98.206.70.2 (talk) 22:59, April 20, 2013 (UTC)


 * Tsukuyomi has a high chance of coming down, and Striker maybe come down but T-King is going nowhere but up. DexxIsBack (talk • contribs) 21:46, May 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd say Tsukuyomi could come down to 3, but it depends; I haven't seen it do much myself, but I could be wrong if it goes to 3. No one ran more than 2 TKRO's to begin with, so it's pointless for it to stay at 2. Either it goes to 3 to keep the meta in check, or it goes to 1 so the meta can take over. I'd personally prefer it go to 3, but it's debatable. T.G. Agents aren't what they once were, so I could see Striker come down. 98.206.70.2 (talk) 23:13, May 29, 2013 (UTC)

September 2013
http://shriek.twoday.net/topics/Banned+Lists/ The September 2013 banlist is confirmed. Here is everything:

Banned:


 * Burner, Dragon Ruler of Sparks - Very low -- Dragon Rulers have had their day, and the Babies won't be coming back anytime soon.
 * Stream, Dragon Ruler of Droplets - See Burner.
 * Reactan, Dragon Ruler of Pebbles - See Burner.
 * Lightning, Dragon Ruler of Drafts - See Burner.
 * Spellbook of Judgment - Very Low -- Prophecies, like Dragon Rulers, have had their fun this format. Once old scars die away in the far future when Prophecies don't do much anymore, this might be able to return, but it's not coming back anytime soon.

Limited:


 * Genex Ally Birdman - Not sure on this one. Hell, Divine Wind to 1 is enough to stop the Harpie FTK as it is. In my opinion, Blaze Fenix should've been limited or banned instead of Birdman and Divine Wind. That card is the REAL reason the deck can FTK.
 * Wind-Up Shark -- Not sure, Wind-Ups were fine with what they had in the March 2013 format, switching Shark and Magician is odd, even for Konami. The deck actually gets a lot better from this switch, but they could just as easily switch them back.
 * Mermail - Abyssteus - Stay at 1 -- I would've hit Dragoons instead of this, but this is ok too.
 * Brotherhood of the Fire Fist - Rooster - Stay at 1 -- Fire Fists used to top in the OCG before Tachyon came out for them, although it is a pain to TCG players just one week after Judgment of the Light came out.
 * Number 11: Big Eye - Not sure on this one -- With all of the babies banned and Abyssteus and Abyssphere at 1, it'll be a lot harder to summon this in both Dragon Rulers and Mermails.
 * Trishula, Dragon of the Ice Barrier - Not sure again -- I thought Konami would unban something in September, but this was not what I had in mind. She could just as easily get re-banned next March. It's still one of the most ridiculous synchros in the game.
 * Super Rejuvenation - Not sure -- What's the point of hitting this if all of the babies got banned? This is just overkill.
 * Divine Wind of Mist Valley - Not sure -- Again, I'd like to see Blaze Fenix smacked instead of this and Birdman.
 * Abyss-sphere - Stay at 1 -- Secondary hit to Mermails, this is ok.

Semi-Limited:


 * Chaos Sorcerer - Not sure -- I could see Sorc at 3 for all I care, chaos decks aren't doing anything at all. But some could disagree with me, discuss below.
 * Gladiator Beast Bestiari - Not sure -- Gyzarus spam might be a problem with 2 Bestiari, but it might just be an overhyped theory.
 * Neo-Spacian Grand Mole - Not sure -- Like Sorc, I could see Grand Mole at 3. But I need more opinions.
 * Gorz the Emissary of Darkness - Not sure -- This was an interesting move by Konami. It discourages OTK's, but it also might be a problem at 2. Need more opinions on where it should go.
 * Fire Formation - Tenki - Secondary hit to Fire Fists, but it also might not be enough. It should go to 1 in March IMO.
 * Black Whirlwind - I think this is ok at 2.

Unlimited:


 * Wind-Up Magician - This was fine at 1, Shark didn't need to trade places with this. But that's my opinion, discuss below.
 * Tsukuyomi - I honestly don't give two shits about this card. It should've gone to 3 a while ago and no one would've cared.
 * E - Emergency Call - I personally disagree with this, HEROs didn't need their 3rd E-Call having topped a YCS this format, but discuss below.
 * Advanced Ritual Art - No one really uses ritual decks anymore. I can agree with this at 3.
 * Pot of Duality - Debatable one, discuss below.
 * Scapegoat - Disagree, this should've been tried at 2 first if anything, discuss below.
 * Reasoning - I honestly don't remember the last time anyone used this card.
 * Mirror Force - I doubt anyone would run 3 anyways.

I've updated the list to include everything, but I'm not sure what to say for some of them. Ninety-eight (talk • contribs) 14:35, August 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * Anyone have comments on where some of these should be? I think most of them might be fine where they are, but I'm still not sure where some should go. Ninety-eight (talk • contribs) 22:59, August 17, 2013 (UTC)

The TCG and OCG have seperate lists!!
The TCG banlist has been conirmed on http://www.yugioh-card.com/en/limited/, but the OCG list on http://shriek.twoday.net/ is different than the TCG list. What should we do about the lists here? Some cards would be listed as in 2 places at once. Ninety-eight (talk • contribs) 02:56, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

Mind Augus also has a deck-out OTK, just saying. -- Dark Ace SP ( Talk ) 17:05, August 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * I thought limiting One Day in March stopped that OTK, I guess for Konami it didn't. Dewloren only loops with Symbol of Heritage at 3, having it go to 1 was just butthurt. Ninety-eight (talk • contribs) 17:19, August 22, 2013 (UTC)

Actually, putting it to 1 wasn't just butthurt, it was outright stupid. I don't think there's a single card on the list that's more deserving of its spot than Dewloren at 2 (with one exception), and I would have put its chance of going up about as small as possible. The only card for safely in its spot (so I thought) is Night Assailant. Battlemaniac (talk • contribs) 02:29, August 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * Most of the cards that were hit on the TCG banlist were outright stupid hits, it wasn't just Dewloren. There was no need to ban Heavy Storm. Now that it is gone people will just set 5 backrows and if you're going 2nd, you'll probably lose unless you set 5 as well, making the game lame and boring and no fun to play anymore. Limiting Compuls, Bottomless, Torrential, and banning Solemn Judgment doesn't compensate for banning Storm at all; there are a million other traps out there that are unlimited that can do the exact same thing as those cards, or better depending on the deck you're using (3 Infernity Barriers and Breaks anyone?) No one runs more than 2 D-Prisons anyways; semi-limiting that was dumb too. D-Fissure, Macro, Soul Drain, and Eradicator to 1 was dumber still. We need cards like that to counter decks like Dark Worlds, Mermails, or Zombies; with them all at 1 it'll be very hard to stop them from topping tournaments next format. Limiting Dragoons is good to stop Mermails, but the secondary problem is Sphere/Teus, not Diva. Limiting Spirit kills 3-axis Fire Fists; they are fine in the OCG with 1 Rooster, but with 1 Spirit they're nearly unplayable. They need Spirit to revive Rooster or Leopard and go for Horse Prince or Lion Emperor. Rekindling won't trigger Spirit so that won't make up for anything. Constellar M7 to 1 is also odd; it's not like the Gustkraken hand loop is a problem for the meta, no different than Shock Master being banned would've solved anything. Limiting Rabbit makes sense if you want to hit Evilswarms, but T-King to 1 is the 2nd dumbest thing on the list, after Dewloren. If anything T-King needs to go to 3. Plaguespreader at 2 might be iffy, but it and Mezuki to 2 is bringing Zombies back from the dead, and 2 Plaguespreader and 3 D-Hero Malicious means Tele-Dad is now playable again. Solemn Judgment getting banned I can agree with, and I've never backed up Monster Reborn; it never should have came off the list to begin with. It's a terribly designed card and it does nothing but give every deck a sacky, broken topdeck that gives you too many undeserved wins, no different than Pot of Greed does. It deserves to stay on the forbidden list forever. Banning Stratos is wiping HEROs off the map for good; it doesn't matter if they have a 3rd E-Call and Hero lives, without Stratos they're dead. Super Rejuvenation has no reason to be banned with all of the babies gone, and Gateway of the Six, Card Destruction, and Ultimate Offering didn't have to be banned either. Six Sams haven't topped in Forever, Card Destruction is only good for Dark Worlds which will only still be relevant because all of their side deck answers are limited, and Offering is too inconsistent to call a worthwhile card at 1, even for Gadgets or Madolches. (Sorry for ranting on some of these, but I really don't like this banlist, and if it doesn't match the OCG's list next year there'll be outcries of rage from many players). Ninety-eight (talk • contribs) 17:49, August 23, 2013 (UTC)

One important thing. It was recently ruled that CED-EotE will miss timing with LPD, and this more frequent ban-list thing suggests experimenting with cards, I think that CED should be edited and moved to very lowChaos Avenger (talk • contribs) 14:49, August 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * That ruling change doesn't make Chaos Emperor any less un-banworthy. It's still one of the most horribly designed cards in the game. It shouldn't ever come back. And the TCG list didn't un-ban anything, so they're apparently not testing anything, they just overkilled the meta (and anti-meta). The only card that was unbanned was Trishula, and that was only for the OCG, which I don't think should've came back anyways. Ninety-eight (talk • contribs) 15:03, August 26, 2013 (UTC)

I was only talking about OCG...we do not reference the shit called the TC banlist. Regardless, with the the new BLS and its support cards out, regular BLS becomes searchable with ease too. And some things, Yata should not be never, it takes a normal and requires a direct attack among other things....there is no "one card lock" unless your opponent leaves his field open in a gambit. CED could be the new BLS to get back on topic, I believe because of Plant rulers Veiler is still a staple, give it some time and it will likely suffer BLS sickness too. And DAD is searchable really easily outside of Witch, I really think she should go to low propabilityChaos Avenger (talk • contribs) 15:13, August 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, I don't think it's very likely you'll draw into and abuse Future Fusion if it came back, I don't think it's very likely for you to get the right cards on your field to FTK with Mass Driver, let alone draw into it at 1, and I also don't think it's likely you'll make a consistent Trap FTK with Makyura since you might not get it in the grave turn 1, let alone draw a bunch of traps or other cards that let you draw. I don't see any reason for them to come though, because when you do pull off your "combo" or "loop" it's game-breaking and downright ridiculous. Yata was banned just 1 list after it was limited, and it never came off the list since. I don't think it ever should or will return either. And it doesn't matter if Chaos Emperor and Sangan are banned. You can just topdeck your Yata from your hand with Plaguespreader, use Stygian Street Patrol to summon Phantom of Chaos from your hand, banish Sky Scourge Norleras from your grave for the effect of PoC, nuke the field and both player's hands, draw Yata, summon it, direct attack, game over. Saying something is "inconsistent" or "bad" doesn't justify it as not being broken. However, I do agree with you that some cards should come off the banned list simply because there are so many better things than those cards, or the old cards that made them OP are either 1)bad now, or 2)banned now. I'm talking about cards like Magician of Faith, Dark Magician of Chaos, Sinister Serpent, Thousand-Eyes Restrict, and maybe Glow-Up Bulb or Cyber-Stein. With Reborn and Storm gone in the TCG, DMoC and/or Magician of Faith should've come back since there'd be no reason to run them without any good spell cards to retrieve with their effects (barring say, Dark Hole, which is the least broken of the Storm-Hole-Reborn trio imo). There's pretty much no reason for Sinister Serpent to remain banned, it's a downright bad, slow, inconsistent +1 that requires you to run trashy, bad cards like Lightning Vortex or Divine Wrath to capitalize off of. It was only banned due to former versatility, which isn't as good (or is gone) these days. With Metamorphosis banned, the only way to abuse Thousand-Eyes now is Instant Fusion, which is practically no different than a reverse Soul Taker, except it doesn't destroy and you can then sack it for a Monarch. Although, that's probably just an inconsistent mess. Glow-Up Bulb can make some impressive synchro plays, but it's a once per duel effect and that's fine by me personally. Cyber-Stein is meh, it has some irritating lockdown and OTK plays via Exterio, Last Warrior, or Blue-Eyes Ultimate, but they're not insanely consistent and paying 5000 lp for a fusion seems like a pretty fair trade for the most part, moreso than Metamorphosis at least. Witch will probably not ever come back; if anything Sangan should return. Witch can search everything Sangan can + a million other really good cards. Not to mention Call of the Haunted becomes viable again with Witch. Even so, both are easily searchable by Tour Guide and Summoner Monk, respectively. Ninety-eight (talk • contribs) 17:57, August 26, 2013 (UTC)

Let us observe that claim " You can just topdeck your Yata from your hand with Plaguespreader, use Stygian Street Patrol to summon Phantom of Chaos from your hand, banish Sky Scourge Norleras from your grave for the effect of PoC, nuke the field and both player's hands, draw Yata, summon it, direct attack, game over." that is gonna need a shit ton of luck to pull of consistently. If anything I would argue the grind game is what makes Yata too good not locks that may work, otherwise just use judgement dragon. FuFu really should not have been hit, but its basically PC when pulled with added bonus of a beat stick. Cards can mill makyura. And once for one existed with subsitoad. Magician of Faith, Dark Magician of Chaos, Sinister Serpent, Thousand-Eyes Restrict, and maybe Glow-Up Bulb(iffy due to trish) or Cyber-Stein. As for witch, like I said Sangan was banned for abuse not use, you cant really abuse witch outside of Call, and I hear call is really popular already due to Reborn ban. I wan't to discuss CED in OCG above all other cardsChaos Avenger (talk • contribs) 18:49, August 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * Future Fusion was only banned because Chaos Dragons abused it, but now that Dragon Rulers exist, it may never return. But the claim with Yata is no different than other banned cards like say, Mass Driver. You'd need a shit ton of luck to get Imperial Iron Wall, Quillbolt Hedgehog, a tuner, and Mass Driver on the field at the same time every duel, or all the cards for some other OTK with it. For one, Mass Driver can't be searched, you can only hope you draw into it, and Iron Wall is a trap, so it's definitely not consistent since you have to set it and wait a turn and hope it won't get mst'd. Yet, I don't see any reason Mass Driver should return since it will only EVER exist for being abused to make some stupid burn OTK/FTK. Just because it's not always consistent doesn't mean it's not broken. And I can think of a lot more reasons to keep Driver banned than to not keep it banned. I never said Substitoad should return (and it never should, not only can it throw half your deck to the grave in a single turn, but one for one or Swap Frog + Salvage can search it too easily). The problem with Witch is that (although not 100% true), roughly 90% of all monsters in the game have a defense lower than their attack. Witch can search just about every card Sangan can + Dad, every monarch, T-King, Reborn Tengu, Dragoons, Mezuki, and god knows how many other good cards. Although, if you want to talk about CED specifically, fine. The reason why it was banned was not just the Yata lockdown with Sangan on your field, but it's got a ridiculously cheap cost for such an immensely powerful effect to nuke the field and both player's hands, not to mention the massive burn damage it inflicts to your opponent. You can set up your grave with dragon rulers or other cards to make sure you have an advantage over your opponent, if you haven't topdecked something else beforehand with plaguespreader. And Judgment Dragon isn't as usable as CED. For one, it's a luck-based card used only in Lightsworns since you may mill it out, and it destroys all the cards. It's a lot easier to counter cards that destroy than cards that send to the grave; also Judgment Dragon doesn't kill the hand like CED does. CED is just too powerful to return. It's does nothing but (literally) end the duel by itself when it hits the field and it should never, ever come back. And limiting CED to 1 won't make it inconsistent either. You can search it with Eclipse Wyvern to get it early on. To be honest, of all of the broken cards that currently exist on the forbidden list, CED is one of the top 10 (if not top 5) least likely to return. Ninety-eight (talk • contribs) 20:04, August 26, 2013 (UTC)

Talking "Genex Ally Birdman", could the reason for Limited be split between the Harpie Lady decks and the Gallis the Star Beast FTK? I was actually a few cards away from making that deck... :( -- LordGeovanni - ( Talk To Me ) *Kupo* 06:10, September 2, 2013 (UTC)
 * I highly doubt that the Gallis FTK had been an issue, since it existed for a few years (and even acknowledged in a game or two) without the combo taking as much as a scratch. The Harpie Dancer FTK made Birdman's Limiting necessary, but perhaps the reason why Birdman was Limited in the TCG where Dancer has yet to arrive is partially due to the utility it offers when bouncing something with an "on Summon" effect. --Gadjiltron (talk • contribs) 08:43, September 2, 2013 (UTC)

Some suggestions
If I may, I'd like to make some suggestions about what we have written here:


 * Evigishki Gustkraken - The "=" is no longer relevant. With M7 Limited, I say we change it to "High chance of going down".
 * Genex Ally Birdman - This should definitely have "Chance of going down", because the way I see it, if Blaze Fenix, the Burning Bombardment Bird ever gets even Semi-Limited, there's no reason to keep it here.
 * Dewloren, Tiger King of the Ice Barrier - At 1, I think the "Low" is just wrong. As long as the decision is thought through, it'll be back to 2 before we know it.

Battlemaniac (talk • contribs) 12:32, September 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * Blaze Fenix should get banned imo, you only need 1 to loop it with Chain Material, though semi-ing it stops Harpie FTK nontheless. I changed Birdman to "=, low chance of down". As for Gustkraken...even with M7 limited, you can still hand loop with multiple copies of salvage if it came down to 2/3. I think it's ok at 1. Dewloren should come down to 2 (limiting it was the dumbest thing about the TCG banlist), but I don't want to say high chance since Konami is unpredictable sometimes. Nontheless, it should come back at 2. Ninety-eight (talk • contribs) 14:09, September 3, 2013 (UTC)

We should also include the cards that were affected by the OCG list but untouched by the TCG list, e.g. Abyss-sphere, Mermail Abyssteus and Wind-Up Shark. --Gadjiltron (talk • contribs) 14:26, September 3, 2013 (UTC)

I see your point about Gustkraken, but there’s a reason it saw no play until M7 showed up. It needs to come off the list entirely. 14:33, September 3, 2013 (UTC)Battlemaniac (talk • contribs)
 * Maybe the hand loop with Salvage was less consistent than the M7 Gishki-Hieratic version, but I still pulled it off before and it's not very good when it happens to you. And Gadjiltron, don't forget Divine Wind of Mist Valley and Number 11: Big Eye. Updated the list with all of them, the table should include all cards, with a note mentioning where it is on the other list. Ninety-eight (talk • contribs) 22:07, September 3, 2013 (UTC)

Banned card suggestions
There's been a little debate on some banned cards I've updated (put Sixth Sense as limited in the TCG, f**k that), but as for a few cards, I'd like to discuss where they should be at. Ninety-eight (talk • contribs) 17:45, October 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Gateway of the Six - Low, Very Low, or Never? I've changed it to very low since Six Sams are a garbage deck anyways, it might not come back soon but saying "Never" is probably overkill for this one.
 * Spellbook of Judgment - Very Low or Never? Prophecies are still a powerful, viable deck even without their win-button, not to mention it's searchable, unlike Gateway. Should we move it to never? I'd like more opinions.
 * Monster Reborn - I've changed it to Never since it's honestly no different than Pot of Greed, Graceful Charity, or Change of Heart. It's a universal, sacky, broken topdeck that gives you unfair wins for no reason.
 * Baby dragon rulers - Since the daddies are still winning tournaments by themselves, should we change this to low, since the daddies will probably get limited in January anyways?

I feel that putting anything that is in the OCG as Never as overkill. See this is what happened. Ban Heavy->Ban Traps->Ban aggression. Chaos Avenger (talk • contribs) 03:37, January 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * I have no idea what the OCG's intentions are, but I'm not a fan of them at all. All they've done is make the game more degenerate and more sacky than it was before by bringing other broken cards back. The TCG is actually using their heads when making the banlist, taking out lots of bad cards and problems for the game, making the game more skillful and slow-based. I don't think we're ever going to get our staples back in the TCG, banning Heavy and the traps was a fair trade-off so it's not set 5 pass but not OTK-based either. Reborn is never coming back either. Not only because Magician of Faith is legal now (and likely going to come down to 2 or 3 in April), but Reborn wins games by itself and everyone used it. If Reborn comes back, so should every other broken staple spell that's banned. Ninety-eight (talk • contribs) 19:07, January 25, 2014 (UTC)

the fact remains OCG will dictate worlds...if you want your predictions to be wrong be my guest and change nothingChaos Avenger (talk • contribs) 01:34, January 26, 2014 (UTC)


 * >sacky
 * >degenerate
 * >broken
 * These are the 3 most repeated words I've been seeing coming out of TCG players' mouths lately, with respect to banlists and card balance. --Gadjiltron (talk • contribs) 02:57, January 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * That's exactly what the TCG banlist has been eliminating over the last two banlists: Sacky, Degenerate, Broken cards that are bad for the game. I really like the current TCG format, it's one of the most balanced I've played under in a long time, I don't see why so many people call the current TCG format a bad format. Yeah there's a couple of problems that have to be addressed here and there, so it's not absolutely perfect, but the OCG's latest February banlist makes me want to vomit. There are so many horrible things about their banlist, I don't know where to start. Ninety-eight (talk • contribs) 05:39, January 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * If anything, I'd like to know how those 3 terms are defined, to better understand whether those terms are justifiably used on certain cards. Like how "winmoar" is for cards that shine best only when you're already in a winning position. --Gadjiltron (talk • contribs) 06:29, January 26, 2014 (UTC)

In some cases, I don't see how it's a bad thing for them to hit cards like Final Countdown and Self-Destruct Button since it's making the game better by getting rid of solitaire decks no one likes to play against, even though they did nothing relevant for ages. In most other cases though, there usually has to be a certain degree of relevancy before you say something like "ban a card because it's badly designed". Cards like Snake Rain and Fossil Dig are inherently badly designed cards. One is a Painful Choice that just has a discard cost, and the other is a ROTA for anything lv 6 or lower, but the problem is, Reptiles and Dinosaurs are two of the least supported types in the game and until they actually do something, those cards will stay at 3. In other cases, it's about profit, Tenki isn't a well-designed card and it's the reason Fire Fists are tier 1 right now, but Konami wants to promote them so they brought it to 3. However, over the past two banlists TCG Konami has been taking out lots of problems for the game, aside from the fact they don't make money off of them anymore, they're making the game as a whole much better. I don't really see anyone in the TCG complaining that this format is "sacky" or "degenerate", it just has a few annoying cards from time to time. How to exactly define those words really depends on the current gamestate. Something that's not labeled as "sacky" or "degenerate" or "broken" right now could be labeled as such by the common yugioh playerbase in the next year or two. Ninety-eight (talk • contribs) 14:15, January 26, 2014 (UTC)

The new ocg list is amazing, they brought back cards, they weakened rulers and swarms, and they made otks hard as well as made a new metaChaos Avenger (talk • contribs) 02:10, January 27, 2014 (UTC)

Chances of moving on the list
After speaking to some other users, this part of the table doesn't need to be included. It's subjective guesswork that adds nothing. Having the reasoning behind why the cards were banned/limited in the first place is enough, so the "Low", "Very Low", "Never" stuff needs to be removed. --Golden Key (talk • contribs) 23:58, February 4, 2014 (UTC)


 * I agree, it's pointless, highly opinionated and is just a potential spark for edit wars.--YamiWheeler (talk • contribs) 00:12, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

I second this notion, with the TCG and to a degree OCG bringing back and going full bananza the chances are really not accurate anymoreChaos Avenger (talk • contribs) 01:12, February 5, 2014 (UTC)
 * Knowing the TCG and OCG having completely different lists, I also agree, there's no telling what either format could hit or bring back (regardless of how much I've come to love the TCG lol) . Ninety-eight (talk • contribs) 20:52, February 15, 2014 (UTC)