Forum:Moving the Wiki to Curse Networks

I address this to all users of this Wikia, both SysOp, Registered, and Unregistered.

I know that I have not been around personally much over the recent past, however, my dedication to the fans of this great game remains unwaivered by the passage of time, and I always do all that I can to look out for not only the interests of this wiki, but the users of it, too.

I have come to propose that we move away from Wikia to Curse Networks. Curse are as passionate about games as we are about playing them, and we would make a natural partner for them.

I'm sure many of you have noticed that the skin that Wikia operates, and refuses to deactivate, has led to many Wikis seeking better hosting, Wowpedia being a notable casualty. The new skin is also driven to increase revenue for Wikia, while at the same time decreasing the quality of the content we have to offer.

The road after we've moved won't be as easy as turning on a switch. We stand to lose some things if we move.

What we Lose

 * Shared Login with Wikia. Curse would operate their own Login system independent of Wikia.
 * Monaco would be *gone*. We would instead have a much friendlier skin system that complements our card article pages.
 * Ads. Curse's goal is for every Wiki to be as add-free as possible. We might not *completely* get rid of ads, but they would be far less intrusive than they are now.
 * Avatars, Facebook Connect, MyHome and the like, all of the Wikia social features would be gone.
 * The automated welcome bot would be gone. If there is enough interest, Curse may code one for us.
 * The Rich Text Editor would be gone. CategorySelect (easy-add/remove categories) would be gone too.
 * "Following" articles would likely change to "Watching" as per the standard Wiki terminology for MediaWiki.
 * Shared help - help pages from the Wikia Help wiki - would not be available.
 * It is worth noting that Wikia would retain a copy of all content on their server at the same location.
 * We will inevitably lose some users, but I hope the vast majority of you will join us in this transition.

But we also stand to gain things.

What we would gain

 * Site speed. Far less extensive and latency-prone squid caching means faster page accesses.
 * Stability. No unannounced code changes to MediaWiki code, for example.
 * More direct control over the backend of the site means upgrades and extension additions will go much faster.
 * Account renaming would be far simpler, especially for users who wanted to pick up their old name after the Wiki move.

What we would keep the same

 * Every byte of content stays the same. Images and Articles both included, including edit histories.
 * SemanticMediaWiki would remain, and would continue to power the heart of the site.
 * All relevant extensions will be kept.
 * Any relevant JavaScript and CSS code will be kept.
 * Rules, Policies, and User Rights should all remain the same.
 * I will endeavour to ensure that a stable Mobile skin be available for use.

I will be here to answer any and all questions posed by users, and to help allay any fears that this move will ultimately present.--TwoTailedFox (My Talk Page) 19:36, November 17, 2012 (UTC)

Addendum
After speaking further, have some additional information to share:


 * If your username is already taken on Curse's login system, you'll be required to create a new one (which I would think is unlikely for the vast majority of users), however, it would seamlessly update everything you've ever edited or uploaded with your new name, so your fingerprint on all relevant work would be unchanged.
 * Curse do not envisage any problems with our content conflicting with Konami if they were to be brought on board, and we are of the agreement that our content would be seen as a positive expansion of Konami's audience.
 * We would aim to have the site up and running by mid-December. Talks with Konami would commence in January.
 * Data would be seamlessly transferred between this site and the new site. All edit histories, articles, and images would be 100% preserved in their current format.
 * Mobile access is planned for 2013, this would be a dedicated system to allow mobile-orientated content to be displayed on mobile devices. This would be tailored for use by us and the rest of Curse's sites, but would allow for much easier showing of mobile content than the method we would have to use here.
 * A Chat Room would continue to operate, and would be on IRC, with the option of a WebClient being linked to from the site. This is a vastly superior option to administer than the current chat incarnation, which is too closely integrated with the Wiki. An IRC Channel for Dueling will also be on there.
 * For all users who want to join the move, they would have the same rights as they would have here. The only change would be chat moderators, who would instead be made Ops on the new IRC channel.
 * Unregistered users would still be able to edit without needing to register a Wiki account.--TwoTailedFox (My Talk Page) 23:39, November 19, 2012 (UTC)

Comments
Hmmm... I would like to see that they have to offer first. Can you give me a direct link to something Curse Networks has so that I can fiddle around on there? (The only association I have ever had with Curse before this was Minecraft, and it just seems devoted to videogames, not necessarily card games.) Also, what would happen to the wikia in the meantime? Would the site be shutdown? 1 other thing... In lieu of categories, how would we be able to arrange things in lists, like the monsters that could be searched via "Sangan" for example? --UltimateKuriboh (talk • contribs) 20:05, November 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * Categories would still exist, but the extension CategorySelect would be unavailable, which is not a major loss. The SMW searching functionality would also remain. As for something that Curse operates, Wowpedia is one of their largest acquisitions, and go a long way to proving that Curse know how to take care of Wikis under their command.
 * I can't reveal *too* much about their plans, but know this: We fit in perfectly for what they have planned next.--TwoTailedFox (My Talk Page) 20:08, November 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * Hmmmm this seems good; I think it's great that the layout for Wowpedia looks very similar (if not identical) to this wikia. What new domain name would our wikia go under? Also, would it be alright for me to suggest this idea to 1 other wikia? I don't know how feasible it would be for them, but just to put it out there... Or would you rather this remain an independent notion? --UltimateKuriboh (talk • contribs) 20:31, November 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * You are free to broker the suggestion, of course. For note, the new Skin that the Wikia would use would be very similar to Wikipedia. As for a domain name, we haven't got that far yet in discussions. Stay tuned for information later on that.--TwoTailedFox (My Talk Page) 20:35, November 17, 2012 (UTC)


 * CategorySelect was disabled from this wiki many years ago at our own request.
 * How we would be able to arrange lists like that "Sangan" one would be exactly the same on both sites. -- Deltaneos (talk) 20:39, November 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * Can you link me to it?--TwoTailedFox (My Talk Page) 21:11, November 17, 2012 (UTC)


 * Sangan: Searchable Cards or Forum:Removal of the CategorySelect tool? -- Deltaneos (talk) 21:14, November 17, 2012 (UTC)


 * Concepts would stay, as we would keep SMW. The searching functionality would remain unchanged from what it is now.--TwoTailedFox (My Talk Page) 21:21, November 17, 2012 (UTC)

The only major advantage I see to forking is that we'll have a choice of a different default skin, which is much less obstructed by ads; most likely either Monobook or Vector. Our current default skin the Wikia skin and the old skin Monaco will most likely not be options.

There are a lot of features Wikia insist on wikis using that are more social networkish than encyclopedic. On Curse we wouldn't have to use those. Most of them wouldn't even be an option. But most of them on Wikia are optional. They can be switched off with community approval. A few, such as the default skin, are not optional.

Just to point out the disadvantages. If this goes ahead, the wiki doesn't exactly move, it forks. This means that there will be two wikis, the one here on Wikia and the one on Curse. Wikia most likely will not close this wiki or allow a notice to be left pointing readers and editors to the new site. The two sites will then be in competition for readers and editors. -- Deltaneos (talk) 20:39, November 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * The site here on Wikia appears very high in search engines and is linked to from countless other sites. If we split far more people are going to find the Wikia site than the Curse one. Here's traffic stats for one wiki, WoWWiki/WoWpedia, a World of Warcraft wiki, that forked to Curse before; Wikia copy, Curse copy. Two years after the fork, the Wikia copy still gets well over twice as much traffic. Plus the Curse version of that site is endorsed by the creators of WoW and it's easier for a wiki on an MMORPG to reach out to its readers to inform them of the fork. We don't have either either of those options. I don't think we'd come close to half the traffic Wikia would still be getting after two years if we do fork.
 * People are inevitably going to continue to edit here. There will essentially be two sets of people working on two different sites. This could mean a lot less work gets done. Potential new editors are also most likely to find the Wikia site first.


 * Actually this was a concern of mine as well, but one I neglected to put down. How would we notify users that we officially moved moved to Curse? And from what TwoTailedFox mentioned, it seems that this wikia will also exist, and cannot/will not be shutdown. --UltimateKuriboh (talk • contribs) 20:48, November 17, 2012 (UTC)


 * I 100% agree with Deltaneos - Wikia copy will get more traffic that the new one. I'm an admin of Wikia-wiki too, and I was considering a fork when the Oasis was implemented as well. However, I decided to stay and bear with all Wikia's (unneeded) changes to the skin rather than compete with Google ranking and the existing copy. And Wikia will likely prohibit you for giving any pernament notice about wiki move. They done it to many wikis that decided to do so. Final Cannon   Dyskusja  20:54, November 17, 2012 (UTC)


 * If I recall correctly, WoWpedia got as many fansites as they could to inform people of the move. Aside from advertising the wiki in other places there's not an awful lot that can be done. If the Curse wiki is kept more up-to-date on new material, that material might appear higher on search engines. But there's no guarantee that people won't continue to add new material to this site. -- Deltaneos (talk) 20:57, November 17, 2012 (UTC)


 * Just to make a quick comment: As a WoW user who used WoWWiki and switched to WoWpedia when it forked, I can safely say that, while people still use and occasionally edit WoWwiki, it's generally much more deserted than WoWpedia, not to mention significantly behind in terms of information. Considering this is happened on a larger and, as Deltaneos pointed out, much more publicized change, the best-case scenario for the two Yugioh sites would be the wikia site being kind of a confusing relic of sorts, albeit one with higher traffic. While this isn't a guarantee, it's what it looks like would happen, looking the past as an example. Not that this is necessarily a deciding factor (the Curse one would still be current), it's still kind of a thing. Of course, I'm also all for this change; I just thought I should throw my two cents in. --Alsius (talk • contribs) 22:59, November 19, 2012 (UTC)

One other advantage would be the search bar. Currently when you search a page, you'll be taken to a page of results rather than directly to the page even if you type the exact page name. In Special:Preferences, if you tick "Enable Go-Search", it will work the old (good) way. If we go to Curse, it will work the old way by default. I have been hoping Wikia will sometime allow us to put it back the old way by default. -- Deltaneos (talk) 20:57, November 17, 2012 (UTC)

Are those people in charge of hosting Bulbapedia ? HPZ - O.N.E. - Captain Moe FTW ! (talk • contribs) 21:00, November 17, 2012 (UTC)


 * Bulbapedia is hosted by Bulbagarden.net. Curse does have a Pokémon wiki though pokemon.marriland.com. -- Deltaneos (talk) 21:05, November 17, 2012 (UTC)


 * Sorry, wrong link; wiki.marriland.com. -- Deltaneos (talk) 21:09, November 17, 2012 (UTC)


 * Delta is quite correct. We would have no option *but* to fork. The core idea would be to keep the new Wiki as up-to-date as possible, and spread the word as much as possible to the new site. Traffic will still be an issue, with Wikia getting the lion's share, but as we can see with WoWWiki, that doesn't mean it will be a better site.
 * This will require effort, co-ordination, and persistence. At the end of day, I am 100% confident that the Curse-hosted alternative is superior than the status quo under Wikia.--TwoTailedFox (My Talk Page) 21:06, November 17, 2012 (UTC)

I'm quite suprised by this idea of splitting. I have to say that some of the wikis that moved to Curse now have little activity. The wiki I spent time with split itself, the one at the Curse now has barely 50 edits per day and around 10 active users, while the one on Wikia has much more numbers. Oh, and I have to mention that it has been since 1 year when that event happened. So please, think what you can lose. E n e r g y X ∞ 23:16, November 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm kinda mixed on this. I do think that Curse will offer us a better user experience, but not having enough people that can edit and keep everything up-to-date will totally not help us. -- - Dark Ace SP ( Talk )  23:12, November 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * If every single person reading this moves with us, that will pay for itself very quickly.--TwoTailedFox (My Talk Page) 23:12, November 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah, but the problem is that how many will read? And if they do, how many are going to go there? People who visit this wiki are happy to have this one, no need for another one. I feel that The Vault (the wiki that split itself I mentioned earlier) has little visitors, because it is hard to navigate and very unpractical to the viewer. E n e r g y X  ∞ 23:16, November 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't think site navigation counts as a hindrance issue.--TwoTailedFox (My Talk Page) 23:18, November 17, 2012 (UTC)


 * It could be, the easier a site is to navigate and use, the more people will probably use it. -- - Dark Ace SP ( Talk )  23:23, November 17, 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm against the move for the reasons Deltaneos put forth. I don't like the new changes on Wikia, but I feel we'd lose more from forking that from staying where we are. If the wiki does fork, I will of course go with it; I love this community.
 * I think forking would be better for the editors. In my opinion, our primary concern shouldn't be those who edit, it should be those who don't. The readers. The people who use this site as a reference. I feel forking would hurt them. However, On that note, if we fork, we would do well to inform everyone we can of it. Post on any and all YGO-related forums about it. Those who use Dueling Network can stick a link in their profiles or something too. Cheesedude (talk • contribs) 23:37, November 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * Just to reference an answer below to this, the readers would be the greatest benefactors from this move. We would finally have a default Wiki layout that conforms to the best possible browsing experience for new readers.--TwoTailedFox (My Talk Page) 19:23, November 18, 2012 (UTC)

Two questions: Would both sites continue to be updated, and does Curse support mobile access as much? Tarix3245 (talk • contribs) 03:04, November 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * I can't promise that this one will to the same standard, but the new one definitely will. I have raised mobile access to Curse directly.--TwoTailedFox (My Talk Page) 20:32, November 18, 2012 (UTC)

TTF, you mention that this would tie in perfectly with a planned future move of Curse. I have a direct line of communication with a Curse employee (I kinda have to, considering I'm an administrator of the Minecraft Wiki), and have actually asked her in the not-too-distant past how Curse would likely respond to a request from us to move, and she said it would be likely that Curse would turn us down, since their primary focus is video games, and ours is not. Does your statement mean that Curse has a shift or broadening of focus planned or something? (You can email me if this isn't something that can be discussed publically yet, or point me to the Curse employee I should get in touch with for more information.) I've also broached the subject with Delt in the past (around the same time I did so with my Curse contact), and his reservations largely haven't changed since then. They're valid points, and having had time to think about them, I largely have to agree with him. We do have one thing that could massively help, though; if we could manage to make the move coincide with the deployment of the new card article layout, so that the Curse fork uses the new layout but this wiki still uses CardTable2, I think that would massively help convince people to move with us. Another possibility that I also touched on in that forum discussion is a Wikimedia Wikidata-like setup: if Curse could set up a central repository for media files and for basic information (basically, just about everything we currently stuff into SMW properties), it would greatly reduce the amount of work that would have to go into setting up new language versions; Curse seems to love the idea of offering different language versions of their wikis, if my experience on the Minecraft Wiki is any indication. The only problem with that is that the original implementation of the Wikidata concept is currently still in its infancy, only handling interwikis, though infobox information (and possibly other types of data) is planned for the future. One last point: Wikia has previously shown no hesitation to strip editors' userrights on wikis that have forked. I have no data, anecdotal or otherwise, to back this up, but it's not too much of a stretch for them to jump from this to stripping userrights on other Wikia wikis or even globally, and there's also the possibility they could this as a reason to refuse future requests (such as a wiki adoption or bot flag request) from such editors. I would like to think Wikia is generally too reasonable for this to actually happen, but I still hesitate at the thought of it. 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 06:06, November 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * The new CardTable template would be something that would help the move immensely. My curse contact is Donovan Duncan, who is the current VP of Marketing and Sale for Curse. I can have a greater depth of conversion on the Chat channel rather than here. As for Wikia stripping editor's of their rights, I can't conclusively say what they would do. Some editors from WoWWiki did get their rights revoked, however.
 * I refer to my point below, and to one of the points I raised above; the current Wiki experience we have here is not a good one, especially for new people. The default layout is ghastly, and was rolled out despite objections. It's also far too heavily invested towards social media, which is a cheap and laughable idea. The entire concept of Wikis on Wikia is to generate revenue; Curse have even acknowledged in the past that they believe Wikis are a poor choice of website to earn revenue from.--TwoTailedFox (My Talk Page) 19:22, November 18, 2012 (UTC)

Wikia hasn't been too kind to us lately, but it's not that bad. Moving everything seems like it would be a bit of a hassle. Also, would this site be deleted if we did move? Would it simply stop being updated? --DARK 07:55, November 18, 2012 (UTC)


 * The site would stay as it now and anyone who still wanted to edit it could and its more likely that this site would get new editors than the new one, since Wikia pops up much higher on Google search results than any other wikifarm would.
 * Having my userights stripped here from forking makes me very uneasy. If we did fork, I wouldn't put it past myself to edit both Wikis if I'm particularly bored. I edit other Wikia wikis on occasion and even considering putting forth an adoption request on an inactive one at one point. Cheesedude (talk • contribs) 12:10, November 18, 2012 (UTC)

I rejected the "Curse" site option, as it's just pointless and waste of the time. If you wish to argue, go read Delta's comment up above, he struck the good points. -- i  F  r  e  d  C  a  t  13:21, November 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * Not if you're an unregistered user. Part of the reason for the move is to make the site look better for new people. I really don't think that's pointless.--TwoTailedFox (My Talk Page) 19:22, November 18, 2012 (UTC)


 * My point was this: How many new people would see the new site? Again, they would end up on the Wikia site first in most cases. Moving would hurt new users because they wouldn't be able to find us. Those that do would have their experience improved, yes. Let me clear: I hate the Wikia skin, I hate the social media stuff, but I consider them to be necessary evils to deal with. Cheesedude (talk • contribs) 21:30, November 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh, I think we will be able to spread the word to many, many people. Will lots of people still come here? Yes, that's inevitable and unavoidable. I don't consider those evils to be necessary, and the more that join in this transition, the easier it will be.--TwoTailedFox (My Talk Page) 21:33, November 18, 2012 (UTC)


 * Many people? Yes. Enough people? No. You keep talking about "this transition" as if its definitely happening. Which it isn't until this discussion is through and more people have weighed in. Cheesedude (talk • contribs) 21:37, November 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * I think we would be able to get enough people to go to the new site. But I need your help to do that. Same applies to every editor here. You're the people that have helped keep this place alive, and you are the people that would help it to flourish with a new host. I'm not willing to accept a second-rate Wiki experience for convenience, and neither should anyone else. We should be striving for the best, not sticking around for the mediocre.--TwoTailedFox (My Talk Page) 21:42, November 18, 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm willing to help. As I said, if we fork, I will come along. The majority of my free time is spent on this wiki, in this community. If it forks, I'll go with it, even if I don't fully agree with the idea. You haven't convinced me yet - and I want to be convinced. Cheesedude (talk • contribs) 21:50, November 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * We have a range of forums, social media, and fansites to carry the word. Reddit, Gamefaqs, Pojo, to name just a few out there. Wikia is seen as a community laughing stock at the moment, and that alone turns some people off. If we put forward the reasons above to move, I'm am very sure that they will side with us. They, like us, are passionate about the game. I understand the concerns, especially those by Delta, and I'm not saying that it will be roses overnight, but I believe that the more that would join us, the easier it would be. I know that we hate change sometimes, but sometimes, it is for the best.--TwoTailedFox (My Talk Page) 21:56, November 18, 2012 (UTC)

If the site on Wikia cannot be shut down, then it's pointless. We'd just give the current content over to other editors, and then try to compete with our own work. Plus, don't you think it would be wise to wait for that "what Curse have planned" to actually come into life before comitting? The user experience here isn't that bad. We should only take such drastic measures if Wikia forces something really bad. --Eps01 (talk • contribs) 22:06, November 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * The skin is bad enough, really. Wowpedia also did the exact same thing, and they're doing absolutely fine. Also, we would have what this Wiki does not have at the moment; official information direction from Konami (such as newsfeeds, etc), and official recognition from Konami as a fan site that is part of the Curse Network.--TwoTailedFox (My Talk Page) 22:11, November 18, 2012 (UTC)


 * Wait, wait, wait. What?! I don't know much about Curse, but that would be part of the deal? Contact with Konami and official recognition? Can you explain this further? Cheesedude (talk • contribs) 22:31, November 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * It wouldn't be immediate, but Curse seem very, very confident that can get Konami on board for the above. It would include news and events direct from Konami, and it would also mean that we would be recognised as a fan site, whereas right now, we don't even have a nod from Konami indicating we exist. It's win-win, we get the nod from Konami, and we further expand the reach of their audience.--TwoTailedFox (My Talk Page) 22:37, November 18, 2012 (UTC)


 * Hmm, very interesting, but it leaves me curious how it would affect our anime and manga stuff. I somehow can't see Konami endorsing our use of screencaps, manga scans and the like, though. Cheesedude (talk • contribs) 00:48, November 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Very easy to cover that under fair use for factual documentation.--TwoTailedFox (My Talk Page) 00:50, November 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * I was under the impression that fair use was a thing specific to wikis that wikis use to avoid copyright infringement. A quick google search reveals I was wrong. I'd honestly not heard of fair use anywhere but wikis before. Cheesedude (talk • contribs) 00:58, November 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * If we were hosting, say, entire episodes, or linking to them on YouTube, or scanning entire manga pages, that wouldn't be fair use, because we'd be using more material than we needed. By only using parts of it, say, cards, or very specific scenes to highlight a character, we are only using what we need.--TwoTailedFox (My Talk Page) 01:20, November 19, 2012 (UTC)


 * I realize that and that's what we do now - we use what we need. My point was would Konami still want us to do that if we were actually affiliated with them? Cheesedude (talk • contribs) 03:27, November 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't see why they'd have a problem with it.--TwoTailedFox (My Talk Page) 03:35, November 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Attorneys will always find a problem, even if there is none :) . This is a matter of interests. I'd imagine they wouldn't be fond of spoilers for the anime and manga. --Eps01 (talk • contribs) 12:12, November 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * If there was a major problem with it, legal action would already have been taken. Not only against us, but against a range of other sites as well.--TwoTailedFox (My Talk Page) 14:49, November 19, 2012 (UTC)


 * That's not the point. Would the English branch of Konami want a site affiliated with them spoiling anime and manga information that has not been dubbed/released in English? Cheesedude (talk • contribs) 15:16, November 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's a significant issue at all. Otherwise we'd have to scrap to entire synopsis for GX Series 4. I really don't think that's going to be a barrier.--TwoTailedFox (My Talk Page) 15:50, November 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Maybe, but it makes it so that we cannot count on Konami's support without sacrifices. --Eps01 (talk • contribs) 18:39, November 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * I have addressed your point at the top of this article.--TwoTailedFox (My Talk Page) 18:52, November 19, 2012 (UTC)

Would we be able to keep the same account log in as we do in this wikia? EQ1 (talk • contribs) 22:57, November 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes. Usernames would however, need to be claimed, as they would be saved with a prefix. The process with Wowpedia was very smooth when it came to users claiming their original names.--TwoTailedFox (My Talk Page) 22:58, November 18, 2012 (UTC)


 * How would we claim a username anyway, just post on a page somewhere in the *possible* new wiki? Also, if Konami might actually recognize us as a fansite, I'd totally be in for it. -- - Dark Ace SP ( Talk )  01:43, November 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * On the new Wiki, there would be a link to just claim your previous username. It uses the login system, and it quite seamless.--TwoTailedFox (My Talk Page) 01:51, November 19, 2012 (UTC)


 * From what I understand, you would enter your name on the new wiki, that would give you a code made of random letters and numbers. You then edit your user page on this wiki while logged in and mention that code in your edit summary. That would prove that the person trying to reclaim the account is its owner. -- Deltaneos (talk) 22:53, November 19, 2012 (UTC)


 * Would we still be able to edit trivia page, making talk pages and stuff like that? -- E. G.G.  (My Contributions) 15:25, November 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Absolutely.--TwoTailedFox (My Talk Page) 15:50, November 19, 2012 (UTC)


 * And what about unregistered users? Will it still be possible for them to edit pages? Dunkles Magiermädchen (talk • contribs) 19:23, November 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Based on Wowpedia, no, they would need to register a Wiki account in order to contribute. This would drastically cut down on vandalism from anonymous users that have plagued this Wiki in the past.--TwoTailedFox (My Talk Page) 19:31, November 19, 2012 (UTC)


 * That's unfortunate. We have a number of unregistered users who are great contributors. They simply prefer to contribute anonymously. Most IP edits are not vandalism, they're simply the edits everyone notices the most. Is it possible that was just a personal choice by Wowpedia editors and wouldn't be necessary. I see more disadvantages to disabling anon contribution than advantages. Cheesedude (talk • contribs) 21:09, November 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Policy by Curse. I don't see there being a massive issue registering to contribute, many wiki's have that in place. This way, Curse can focus more on keeping the system stable, and less time having to revert anonymous vandalism. I see your point, but there are reasons behind the lack of anonymous editing, especially given the press coverage the new site would have. Without registering as a barrier, it would invite a lot of anonymous damage.--TwoTailedFox (My Talk Page) 21:15, November 19, 2012 (UTC)


 * The ability to let unregistered users edit is optional. GulidWiki is on Curse and allows unregistered editing. The World of Warcraft wiki disallowed unregistered editing while they were still on Wikia and maintained that after the fork. -- Deltaneos (talk) 22:50, November 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Will raise that.--TwoTailedFox (My Talk Page) 22:57, November 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Have now confirmed that unregistered users will still be able to edit.--TwoTailedFox (My Talk Page) 23:25, November 19, 2012 (UTC)

Looking at the What we section, and if we get official recognition from Konami, it might be worth. One question: will this Wikia redirect the users to the Curse website? For example, you go to a page, then somewhere in that page will be a link saying something like "You can find more information in (...)" or "Check also this page in (...)", or it will be only announced on the Main Page that the users should use the other website? --Missign0 (talk • contribs) 16:45, November 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * The Wiki would not redirect, but we can add a link to the CardTable advising more information can be found elsewhere. WoWWiki still does that with other sites, I'm sure we can.--TwoTailedFox (My Talk Page) 17:12, November 19, 2012 (UTC)


 * Wikia would not permit that link in the card table. They've removed similar stuff from other wikis that forked for using the Wikia service to advertise a rival site. -- Deltaneos (talk) 22:50, November 19, 2012 (UTC)

One other thought I just had: what would be the possibility of the French, German, Polish, and Spanish wikis from here also moving? Needless to say, this would require discussions on each of those wikis to establish consensus for the move, and if the timeline of moving this wiki in mid-December is to be kept, they'd probably have to be moved later, but if it happened that would help with supporting more international editors (e.g. Dunkles heavily edits the German wiki currently). -- as 67.58.244.82 (talk) 19:51, November 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * There would be no barrier to those Wikis being brought over, I would think.--TwoTailedFox (My Talk Page) 19:54, November 19, 2012 (UTC)

Questions
 * We already have an IRC channel. Would the hypothetical new one be on another server or what would be the advantage of creating another one?
 * What is it Curse can do to get endorsement from Konami that we can't do while being hosted here? Wikia did talk with FUNimation about sponsoring the Soul Eater wiki. Although, nothing seems to have happened there.
 * The biggest problem with the mobile skin here is that we can't edit the CSS, through internal, external or inline styles. If we have access to the CSS, I think we could fix every problem with the skin. Has anyone ever contacted Wikia about enabling that much? I know they gave us the &lt;mobile&gt; and &lt;nomobile&gt; tags, but given the order stuff gets parsed in, there is very little use for them.-- Deltaneos (talk) 22:50, November 19, 2012 (UTC)


 * We could use the existing IRC on Freenode.
 * Curse already work with them in some areas. Far easier talk with someone like Konami when you have the clout that Curse have. It's not something we could accomplish on our own.
 * I don't think Wikia would be open to having us touch the skin, that's why they give the tags out.--TwoTailedFox (My Talk Page) 22:57, November 19, 2012 (UTC)

Curse Networks are primarily aimed at games; as such, the sites are categorized as "Games" sites. Many institutions and jobs block game sites, mine being one of them. People will have more difficulty accessing the site under Curse than our current one (which is listed as "Reference" according to this site) during the day if they work or go to school if we go under "Games" as opposed to "Reference". --Golden Key (talk • contribs) 23:37, November 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * With all due respect, that's a matter between you and your employer. A website cannot make decisions based on an employer's choice to block a particular series of websites or domains.--TwoTailedFox (My Talk Page) 23:50, November 19, 2012 (UTC)


 * With all do respect, you're missing my point. Our target demographic, children and teens, will not be able to log on to our site during their lunch breaks or while they're at the library to look up rulings on our site while they Duel with their friends anymore. Anyone with a job won't be able to check out the site on the coffee breaks. Currently, as a "Reference" website, we're open to viewing from anyone anywhere. We're going to lose people who like it here if we move. We're going to lose people because we'll no longer be the top result in Google searches if we move. We're going to lose people because because the site will no longer be as accessible to people everywhere if we move. You didn't even seem bothered when we thought unregistered users wouldn't be allowed to edit. Just how small are you trying to make the community? --Golden Key (talk • contribs) 00:05, November 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * Let's break down those one by one:
 * I have already acknowledged that we will lose people; Also, "anywhere"? My previous employer blocked all .net domains, regardless of content. I couldn't access this site from work, even though it never had a "Games" categorisation (which, by the way, is completely arbitrary, and is down to the software that the Employer uses. You make it sound like a committee decides what category a website gets). I was, however, able to browse other Curse sites, which really puts your claim to bed. Not every employer blocks gaming websites.
 * We are a top result in Google, but so is WoWWiki; Wowpedia is still the superior site by a huge, huge margin, as our new site would be. We are not accessible everywhere in our current form, either.--TwoTailedFox (My Talk Page) 00:14, November 20, 2012 (UTC)

I believe this site to be pretty good anywhere; it is mainly a database for Yu-gi-oh. That will not change wherever it goes, and I hope fans stay loyal to the site. I know I will be staying (Not as a common editor, yet) with the site no matter where it moves, and hope that more people come over, even if they can not do so at work. --TechGenusMaster (talk • contribs) 00:29, November 20, 2012 (UTC)

I do not think that the wiki should change. While I do not actually edit the wiki (forgive me for that), I do use it when me and my father play cards when we need a question answered. I feel that the wiki is fine the way it is and that there is no need for a change. Did something happen or what? Is there a problem with the way it is now? Although I don't know anything about these "curse networks", I see no reason for anything to be different. If it did change I might be unhappy. Though from other comments I see that this curse thing is not very popular. We want somthing everyone can use easily, without having to go in loops and twists. —This unsigned comment was made by SynchroKingSharkDrake  (talk • contribs)  02:06, November 20, 2012‎ (UTC)
 * There are many good reasons to move, which I shall list for you.
 * 1)Wikia has made is plainly clear that they are not interested in the userbase of the Wikis; the New Wikia skin was introoduced (which dramatically reduces available article sizes) was rolled out, despite objections across the Wikis. Wikia has also refused to comply with the CC-By-SA 3.0 license, by refusing to release a copy of the Images stored on this Wiki. Those two reasons alone make Wikia a very untrustworthy hosting partner.
 * 2)Curse will be able to get Konami to recognise us; I don't know about you, but the ability to directly get information from Konami is a big, big plus.
 * 3)The way the wiki is edited now will not change. The Skin will be different, which will greatly enhance the appeal of viewing it.
 * 4)There are no twists or loops. You would not be required to get a new account if you wanted to view, or edit articles.
 * 5)I realise a lot of this may not seem significant to a lot of people who casually use this site, but the issues outlined above make a compelling case to move, and I hope you will share that reasoning--TwoTailedFox (My Talk Page) 02:54, November 20, 2012 (UTC).

Hi guys. My names called Michael and I'm not a Yugioh Wikia contributer but I'm here to help out with this question. I think the layout of 'Wikia' is nice but is the layout of this web-site going to be the same? Also I don't like the ads in 'Wikia'; it tends to be very annoying but the other 'Curse' thing doesn't have it which is good. I suppose sticking with 'Wikia' even if there are ads because it's not really a big problem. Also as said, old users would lose their accounts which I personally think is bad.

I seriosuly think communicational tabs or applications are very vital in web-sites because it makes a typical web-site become more popular and diverse by sharing various pages from this web-site.

Also; if people type in yugioh, they would still know the 'wikia' one and they don't know the one with 'curse' so they can't find this web-site anymore or if they do click the 'wikia' website, is the team going to put a link to access the new web-site? If it was there, I would think it's a virus so I wouldn't bother clicking on the link.

Even if it's faster, I think the layout of a web-site is very important. Thanks Duelists and I really love Yu-Gi-Oh! --60.241.18.76 (talk) 05:47, November 20, 2012 (UTC)


 * In my opinion, forking an existing (and really good) project mainly because of the skin issues is not the best idea. Someone will hate the skin while the other will like it; there are people that have learnt to deal with it (like me). Anons are likely ignoring the skin while the more experienced ones register and choose the Monobook in their prefs. IMHO, skin is too trivial issue to make such overhaul in the community. The only worthy argument of the fork I noticed in the earlier comments is the official recognition by Konami. Final Cannon   Dyskusja  11:24, November 20, 2012 (UTC)

I got a question about the users part. It's been said that we keep our accounts; I'm not registered in curse, I tried to see if I was registered and I'm not, so how will that work? -- E. G.G.  (My Contributions) 19:07, November 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * Curse's Wiki Login system is independent of Curse's normal login system (as used on sites like GuildPortal, etc). You'd just be re-taking your old wiki name (if available), registering with Curse outside of the Wiki isn't needed.--TwoTailedFox (My Talk Page) 19:42, November 20, 2012 (UTC)

A (long) comment from Wikia
Hi all, that's quite a discussion :) I've been going through it to see where I can add another perspective, and where I can clear up questions.

The first thing I have to disagree with, is TwoTailedFox's allegation that the quality of content has been somehow damaged here by being on Wikia. This is a wonderful project, with a great community and top-quality content.

I think I should talk next about our policy on forking. We absolutely respect your right to fork. Of course, that doesn't mean we like it when it happens, and naturally we would prefer it didn't! But the open source movement has always allowed for the possibility of forks, where enough people feel that's the right thing to do. What I hope, is that I can give you enough information and support to help you make the decision not to fork.

As has been said here, when a wiki forks the existing wiki on Wikia remains open. People who want to stay, and those who find the wiki in the future, become the wiki's new community, and choose admins and policies for themselves (or keep the ones already in place). We do not remove rights from people for talking about forking, or for actually forking. We do remove rights from people who try to damage the wiki they have left, or who try to use the existing wiki to advertise the fork, or who visit multiple other wikis to try and encourage them to fork too! We also remove rights if the remaining/new community asks us to. One thing we do ask is that all messaging (including the current notice on the main page) acknowledges that this wiki will remain and that everyone has the opportunity to stay here.

Now, on to some practical information. I know a couple of people have mentioned the traffic implications of forking. On the Wikia side, we've found that traffic can be affected, especially at first, but that it's also very likely to recover over time. On the side of the fork, it's likely that it will never get up to the levels of the existing wiki. For example, to use the three that have been mentioned already: The fork version of Fallout (The Vault) currently has just under 600,000 pageviews a month. The version on Wikia has fully recovered its community, and has more than 26 million pageviews a month. For Wowiki, the numbers are around 5 million monthly for the fork, and 20 million monthly for the Wikia wiki. And for the Pokemon wikis, it's about 370,000 pageviews for the fork hosted by Curse, and more than 26 million pageviews for the version on Wikia.

It would be good to give comparisons of the editor numbers too, but I can't access those for the forks. But it's certainly fair to say that all of the Wikia wikis mentioned above have active and healthy communities.

On ads: I would encourage you to look at Curse for yourselves, and remember that we show almost no ads for logged in users.

There was a point about how "following" can be changed to "watching". This can be changed via your site mediawiki messages. For example, MediaWiki:Watching is one of those that can be tweaked. It takes a bit of searching to find the right pages sometimes, but we can help with that if you're stuck.

Speed and stability. This is something we work hard on, and I'm very proud of all the progress we've made. Yugioh in particular uses the Semantic MediaWiki extension which is very heavy on the servers, and which we've done a lot of work to support. We've also changed the way images load on the site, and made a lot of other tweaks to improve stability. Here's a blog post about one of the changes – lots of little ones like this mount up!

I'm not sure what TwoTailedFox meant about renaming accounts being easier... the only thing I can think of is the time it takes to check all wikis and change your contributions on them where you've edited. Because Curse does not have single sign on (you have to register a new account for each of their wikis), the process here is a little more difficult. But either way, name changes can be done simply by asking us via Special:Contact. If I've misunderstood, please let me know.

Delaneos: We have more data on search now, so it's possible the time might be right for allowing a change there, I can certainly investigate the possibility for you.

Something that came up a few times is the experience of the site for new users. This is interesting, because it's been a key factor in our development of the site. What we found was that new users were being scared off by the old look, and less likely to jump in and try an edit than we would like. New users are the lifeblood of the wiki of course, so it was very important to get that right. I think it's important to separate "I don't like this, it's not what I'm used to so it's harder" from "a person who is new to wikis won't like this". Wikia's, and this wiki's, growth seem to suggest we are getting things right (although, of course, your contributions are a bigger factor in the wiki's growth!)

It's interesting to hear TwoTailed fox talk about official recognition from Konami, because that sort of arrangement is something Wikia is very interested in for wikis here. It's not always simple, for example we have found that some Japanese companies want a level of control over the content that we just won't accept. A company that becomes affiliated with us and with a wiki on Wikia has to agree that the community members have the freedom to contribute the content they choose to contribute, as well as manage the communities. And, as Cheesedude mentioned, some companies aren't always keen on being associated with wikis that use fair use images, or who write about areas not directly associated with them. But that said, we've already had some wonderful successes with things like the official status of EQ2i Wiki with Sony Online Entertainment, a community interview with a Faster Than Light developer, and even one wiki that had a live chat with one of the actors they had written about. The Planetside wiki is another Official Community for Sony and is a little different than EQ2i as the Planetside wiki was built from scratch as an Official Community.

Two of the people involved in this word are Eric Moro,on the Entertainment side, and George Jones on the Gaming side. It's their job to seek out these sort of affiliations, and offer our communities the best opportunities to get content and connections with the people behind their subjects. They both have a lot of good contacts, and know the right people to talk to when we want to do something new and exciting. And it's important to us that we can provide support for Entertainment as well as Gaming (and others), we don't want to be limited to just one type of community. George has already had contact with someone from Konami (rather than talks starting in January for Curse) and we definitely intend to talk to them again.

If you'd like to learn more about what these guys do, George talks about some of our Official Communities and other stuff he's been working on here, and Eric's next big thing is a major event that's planned for Spring next year - I can't wait for that one!

So this has been a very long response, and my only excuse is that you wrote more ;) I very much want to help, and to answer any other questions you have, so please let me know if I can.  Thanks all -- sannse http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb32675/wikia/images/e/e9/WikiaStaff.png  (help forum | blog)  02:45, November 20, 2012 (UTC)


 * Should be pointed out that WoWWiki is a shadow of it's former self after the fork. Traffic levels do not a better site make.--TwoTailedFox (My Talk Page) 02:54, November 20, 2012 (UTC)


 * Curse show no ads for unregistered users on their Wikis. Curse also don't have intrusive skins for new users, like the one you introduced despite overwhelming rejection of it.--TwoTailedFox (My Talk Page) 02:54, November 20, 2012 (UTC)


 * Registering an account would not necessary for editing on any new site, FYI.--TwoTailedFox (My Talk Page) 02:54, November 20, 2012 (UTC)


 * As an addendum, please explain why you have refused to comply with the CC-BY-SA license in my earlier correspondence with Wikia.--TwoTailedFox (My Talk Page) 02:55, November 20, 2012 (UTC)


 * TwoTailedFox: I've moved your comments out from the middle of mine, it makes it harder to parse if you insert yours that way, so I ask that you leave my full comment intact. Thanks
 * On licensing, I'm sorry, I don't know what you mean. Can you explain? or give me more details to search for past mails with? -- sannse http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb32675/wikia/images/e/e9/WikiaStaff.png  (help forum | blog)  03:54, November 20, 2012 (UTC)


 * [Edit Conflict] On trafficking, the only concerns were how much traffic Curse Networks could obtain from the wiki. I didn't see any comment here worrying about traffic being taken away from the wiki; rather, I saw comments worrying about how much traffic we could take with us from the wiki. I liked how you answered the question from the opposite side of view. Clever ;). In any case, the only reason I would want the shift is if we managed to bring the fanbase with us, and of course, official Konami affiliation and support, both of which you seemed to answer efficiently in your well-thought out statement. I think I will let others take it from here, but 1 last thing: I am curious as to how you found out about this. Naturally, it is in your best interest to resolve situations like this ASAP, but still. In advance, thank you for the time you took in addressing our concerns. --UltimateKuriboh (talk • contribs) 03:01, November 20, 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm should be able to pull up those numbers too - although it will be easier to do so tomorrow, when I'm in the office. I'm about to sign off for the night, but will see what I can find out in the morning.  For your other question, I'm not actually sure how this discussion came to our attention - someone pointed it out to someone, who pointed it out to JenBurton, who asked me to look.  -- sannse http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb32675/wikia/images/e/e9/WikiaStaff.png  (help forum | blog)  03:54, November 20, 2012 (UTC)


 * On mobile. Sannse, my point wasn't about the quality of the content, but about the actual brand being tainted. Wikia in a lot of the wider world is seen as a joke. That new skin is partially the reason why.


 * TwoTailedFox: Obviously I disagree strongly with your opinion of Wikia, and I disagree that your opinion is widely shared. I have always respected you and thought well of you, so I'm sad that you feel this way. I suspect there's nothing I can do to change that right now, but if there is some way I can help, please let me know. -- sannse http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb32675/wikia/images/e/e9/WikiaStaff.png  (help forum | blog)  03:54, November 20, 2012 (UTC)


 * As you can probably tell from my registration details, I was around when Wikia was Wikicities. For the vast majority of my time, I have been a strong advocate of Wikia and all that it represented; I would not have raised this issue without just cause and concern, and a lot of that is brand perception. Wikia has damaged itself, quite badly, in the eyes of many in the gaming community, not just with the new Skin, but because of what has seemed like a paradigm shift in how Wikia regarded Wikis; previously, Wikia was genuinely seen to be fostering communities, as opposed to now, with many people disliking what is seen as treating Wiki communities as a source of revenue. We can argue back and forth over how right or wrong this is, but this is what I have heard from people I've spoken to. You can ignore this if you wish, however, as a company, I would at least advise this be investigated.--TwoTailedFox (My Talk Page) 18:59, November 20, 2012 (UTC)

As long as quality of the articles and frequency of the updates remains the same, I'm not phased either way. Forced to pick, I'd prefer to stay on the Wikia as the background, ads and search engine don't bother me.

TheDesertRunner (talk • contribs) 13:42, November 20, 2012 (UTC)

Getting recognized by Konami is a BIG plus. The database feature that this wiki has will still be present no matter where the wiki goes; why not take benefits and gt rid of the defects the Wiki has? I hope the fans stay loyal and realize that NOTHING will change; this wiki will be the same awesome wiki (or website) no matter where it is. --TechGenusMaster (talk • contribs) 14:29, November 20, 2012 (UTC)

no!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was wondering, why don't we make a poll to see if people want the fork or not? A simple yes or no on the poll should do. I personally am unaffected by the fork since I don't edit much (sorry about that), and would definately try to help to spread the word if such an event were to occur. Neos01 (talk • contribs) 21:11, November 20, 2012 (UTC)


 * I was suggesting that too, but I think it's clearly obvious a poll would be made anyway. -- E. G.G.  (My Contributions) 21:13, November 20, 2012 (UTC)