Talk:Signer Dragon/Archive 2

Blackfeather Dragon
i mean come on the page for shining darkness calls bfd crows new trump card.....its common sense that thats the fifth dragon i dont give a crap about speculation...ill tell ya what tho....when it IS revealed that bfd IS the fifth dragon...imma go to each n every single one of u that claime speculation and say HAH I Frecking (abridged Marik) TOLD U SO...that is all--Hairball420 14:38, November 13, 2009 (UTC)


 * This is for discussing the article, not a place to post your own theories. I've cut out the entire section on AFD, PTD and the Earthbound Gods (along with other irrelevent theories people have posted). If the talk isn't relevant to changes we'll be making to the article, it shouldn't be posted. You're "Blackfeather Dragon" discussion is legitimate since you're saying we should change the page to what you're talking about their.
 * I don't see how it saying it's Crow's new trump card is an implication that it's a Signer Dragon. Since he doesn't yet have the Fifth Dragon, it's possible for him to have a trump card that's not a Signer Dragon. If it was meant to be obvious and they want us to know (not think) it's the fifth Dragon, they would have said it. You said they did a good job making people think PTD was the fifth Dragon. It's very possible they could do the same with Blackfeather Dragon. If it does turn out that Blackfeather Dragon is the fifth Dragon, I'd still stand by the decision to have not said it was without confirmation. -- Deltaneos (talk) 15:07, November 13, 2009 (UTC)


 * How is a theory not discussing the article, since it is about one of the dragons? and i stand by what i said...when blackfeather dragon is shown to be the fith dragon, ill tell u and everyone else i told u so...and if im wrong ill gladly admit it...and i take offense to u calling my theory irrelevant when it was since its about the fith dragon!--Hairball420 15:14, November 13, 2009 (UTC)


 * You weren't suggesting we change the article to say the fifth dragon couldve swooped in and rescued AFD while getting captured on. That's why it wasnt able to take card form. Then in current day when the Jibakushin were released it's spirit was let go and perhaps it wandered about looking for a form to take. is it possible that its spirit inhabited PTD? Therefore the discussion was irrelevent to the article. Talk pages are for people to discuss changes to articles, they're not for general talk on the subject of the article.
 * We're not saying you're wrong to say "Blackfeather Dragon" is the fifth Dragon. We don't know if that's true or not. We're saying you're wrong to say it's known that "Blackfeather Dragon" is the fifth Dragon. If it does actually turn out that "Blackfeather Dragon" is the fifth Dragon, you won't "have told me so" anything. At this moment in time we don't know that it's the last dragon or not. If it does turn out that is, it doesn't change the fact that at the time we had this converstion it was unknown.
 * If you have solid proof that is, not there's a good chance it is, the fifth Dragon, then you can say it is not speculation to say "Blackfeather Dragon" is the fifth Dragon. -- Deltaneos (talk) 15:27, November 13, 2009 (UTC)


 * We now have a picture of Blackfeather Dragon and it is NOT the Fifth Dragon.Altyrell 18:53, January 14, 2010 (UTC)

Okay i see that the BFD is more of a winged beast than a dragon but maybe in the yugioh series there maybe an episode where Crow gets the card and its a dragon type

WTH do you mean Crow's not a true Signer?! Oh yeah everyone has a Dragon's Birthmark now, cuz it's such a big thing! I mean, honestly Rua would literally cut off his own arm and switch it with Crow's cuz he wants to be the Fifth Signer! lol

BFD is the fifth dragon... are you stupid?


 * Seriously, F*S, Blackfeather Dragon is NOT the Fifth Dragon, for one important and major reason:
 * 1)  IT LOOKS NOTHING LIKE THE FIFTH BLOODY DRAGON 
 * So, please stop saying it is.Altyrell 03:52, February 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * A Dragon in the possession of a Signer does not make it the 5th Dragon. Rex had "Sun Dragon Inti" and Roman had an undisclosed "main card". Kiryu possesses a Dragon, but he is not a Signer, so it is not the 5th Dragon. The Fifth Dragon must the one here: Fifth Dragon. It was stated by Yanagi (in episode 8) that the appearance of the Dragons has not changed, only their form (ex: statue -> action figure -> card). DemonGodAsura 05:07, February 1, 2010 (UTC)

I think that question has been answered already. Even Jack himself said BFD was a Signer Dragon. Plus, if you really want to get technical with the whole BFD not looking like Golden Gaia Dragon (only god knows why you gave it a name when its not even an anime based card), lets go back to the very beggining of the series when good 'ol Yanagi was first explaining the properties of the Crimson Dragon and the five dragons back in episode 8. This is an exact quote of what he said: "The five dragons have changed their looks over the ages, but still live on." With that said, lets take a look at the history of Golden Gaia Dragon... oh wait, I forgot that there is no history other than it showed up in a vision and that there is a fan made assumption that Power Tool Dragon is a mechanical version of it, and I will emphesize on "fan-made" assumption since nowhere does it say that Power Tool Dragon is a mecha-version of GGD. So instead of using a fan-made assumption that PTD or GGD is and should be the fifth, we should go for what IS said (by a major character not to mention) and make BFD the fifth instead of complaining about its similarity to this GGD thing. If the facts change, then like Deltaneos said, take it down and put up the new info so and if we are all wrong (which has happened plenty of times before), then at least we're the previous facts were based on the anime and not fan-made assumptions like GGD.--Sky Scourge God 02:40, February 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * It's simply a fan-name for flavor and ease of usage. Nothing to get bent up about, it's been used by a lot of people, but no one is pretending it's something official or putting it in any canonical document.  "Fifth Dragon" is just so soulless and just as non-canonical as the Dragon itself has no official name anyway, so any name used is fine, and so far people are catching on more to Golden Gaia.  Either way, back on THIS topic, what you're saying as already been said by a lot of people.  The problem is naysayer people who don't want to come on board for any amount of bias reasons.  Like I said, waiting to for the facts to go along with their fantasies and rather keep any new facts that get in the way off the page for as long as possible.  ShinobiPhoenix 02:51, February 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * ...isn't that kind of what I'm saying? New facts have been presented, they are valid, and they beat out any other previous facts or assumptions that have come up in the past, and therefore those new facts should be taken into consideration. The reason I brought up the whole GGD issue is because too many people are complaining about it, even though there's literally NOTHING to back it up vs. BFD having more than enough validity to be considered a Signer Dragon with its strongest fact being that a major character called said dragon "The Fifth Signer Dragon". If thats not enough, then I really can't think of anything that is...--Sky Scourge God 03:21, February 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm with you on this, you know, I haven't argued with you on any of this (especially since I literally said most of it already here). I'm saying other are still arguing and making things have to be locked and it isn't right to have stuff sitting locked with wrong information for a bunch of people who just will not come on board anyway.  Unfortunately, anyone will ignore facts when it suits them to.  Whatever keeps the dream alive.  ShinobiPhoenix 03:39, February 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yeah I know, and I agree with you all the way. Locking down the pages seems harsh, especially if none of its been updated, but the reason its locked is because the admins who watch over those pages are waiting to see if its ok to add that info on said pages based on our conversations and whatever facts have been brought up in those conversations and arguements. By the way, I didn't say you were argueing with me, but I do aplogize if it seemed like I was. I never intended to anger people, just wanted contribute my opinions to an important decision/disscusion. --Sky Scourge God 03:49, February 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * the translation is not accurate he could have saids "is that the fifth signer dragon?" not "that's the fifth signer dragon" so unless it is truely proven and the actual translation of what yanagi said is "the dragons have changed over time" that dosent mean thier appearance has changed and even so i dont think that such a dramatic change is plausible seeing as how all four dragons in ruka's vision look the same as they do now yet now with the introduction of bfd it's said that, that is the fifth dragon yet it looks nothing like the draogn from the vision in the battle against the earthbound immortals so if we have another peice of evidence saying that it is the dragon like a creator of the show some sort of solid evidence that proves ithat bfd is the last dragon 67.158.15.172 19:33, February 7, 2010 (UTC)

Episode 95
From todays episode dont understand. If Blackfeather Dragon is not the fifth Dragon, then why Crow´s, Yusei and Jack birthmarks reacted to it as if it happens when a Signer is dueling with its correrspondant Dragon? DracoX 16:54, February 3, 2010 (UTC)

I've copied this over from Talk:Signers. It seems better suited here. -- Deltaneos (talk) 19:11, February 3, 2010 (UTC) "when he saw Blackfeather Dragon? he said anything about Signers but I didn't understand it well. did he said that Blackfeather Dragon is the Fifth Dragon? Because people are adding Blackfeather Dragon to the Five Dragons and Signers chart. OMG! You did it 17:36, February 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * Didnt understand neither, however Yusei and his Birtmark reacting to its presence denotes this fact "A Signer's birthmark throbs and glows while they are in close proximity of one of the Dragons when it is fighting with a great deal of determination, particularly for the sake of their Signer". Also pointing out Crow´s own Crimson Dragon mark is what made Blackbird reveal this card, as it was apparently acting as a password. DracoX 17:54, February 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * Then people should stop adding Blackfeather Dragon being the fifth dragon, there is no enough proof yet. We know, Yanagi said that their looks may change within the time, that means that either Power Tool or Blackfeather is the Fifth. We'll have to wait until Blackfeather Dragon's next appearance. OMG! You did it 18:02, February 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well is not like the Dragon we seen, but cant deny that Crow´s Signer Dragon. Othwerwise why Crow´s Crimson Dragon mark acted as a password to unlock that card on his Duel Runner. And cant deny what already mentioned also about Yusei and Jack´s marks reacting to it. DracoX 18:15, February 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * I still don't believing that until we see the subbed episode. OMG! You did it 18:29, February 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * Was there anything else said in the episode to imply that it's one of the Five Dragons? The dragon birthmarks aren't known to exclusively react to the presence of Signer Dragons. Aki's started to glow when her powers manifested. They've also lit-up in the presence of Dark Signers or when a new Signer appears. I think all we can conclude from birthmarks reacting to it is that it's important.
 * I'll admit it looks likely to be the fifth Dragon at this stage, but they still haven't said directly that it is (or have they?). And there's still the fact that it looks completely different than the fifth Dragon we've seen in the flashbacks. -- Deltaneos (talk) 19:04, February 3, 2010 (UTC)"


 * People are FAR AND ABOVE too hung up on it "looking like GGD." Why would it?  Wouldn't that take away from Power Tool and its importance?  Not to mention it should belong to Rudger.  Crow would have his own, he is the current Signer and his Dragon would be a Signer Dragon with him.  Jack not only stated in his own words that it was (and many people have done the translations for it already, I guess others are demanding correct subs), but the mere fact that the Marks glow (not just Crow's, but at least Yusei and Jack's start burning) as a show of protecting their fellow Signer is rather blatant.  I say again, the hater-aid needs to stop.  Crow is the Fifth Signer, period.  His Dragon is HIS Signer Dragon.   That does NOT take away from there being an "original" Fifth, though really it would be more proper to say "previous" Fifth Dragon.  It should NEVER look like the original because it would take away from PTD's importance.  As I will continue to say "The Dragons are for the Signers, they are no hoes to be transferred around to new pimps.  The pimp brings his own hoes." ShinobiPhoenix 23:23, February 3, 2010 (UTC)

Disregard the above. Jack's dialogue was "あれがシグナーの５体目の龍", which means ""This is the Fifth Signer Dragon". That's solid evidence that it is a Signer Dragon. -- Deltaneos (talk) 23:19, February 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Is there a chance "This is the Fifth Signer Dragon" could mean something other then "Fifth Dragon"? I mean, how do we know that that sentence is referring to the Fifth Dragon and not the Fifth Signer now having a Dragon? I'm not trying to stir up anything, i am just wondering as to how we know the meaning of the setence.Altyrell 03:40, February 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, "Fifth Signer Dragon" would mean something other than the "Fifth Dragon." Given Fifth Dragon isn't anymore official than anything else being used for the name for one thing if you mean "it's not the Dragon every other person keeps pretending it should be," yes, that would mean something other than Fifth Dragon.  It is the Current Fifth Signer Dragon, not that other Fifth Dragon that wouldn't belong to anyone but Rudger anyway until the writers decide otherwise and right now, they are not. Fifth Signer's Dragon, not Fifth Dragon. It's sort of what people have been saying in the first place instead of hanging up on this obsession with having a dragon that showed up only once in the whole series suddenly belong to someone else.  ShinobiPhoenix 03:48, February 4, 2010 (UTC)

That point is considered even if it happens to be that the writers are using that Dragon as a substitute for the original fifth Dragon for a reason. Also to be taken is the fact that mentioned is Jack and Yusei marks reacting kind of like they did when Akiza summoned Black Rose Dragon. DracoX 01:24, February 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * But nonetheless it is a Signer Dragon.
 * ok people the dragon marks react when a signer is fighting with feirce determination and ptd has no importance see if the signer's dragons can change then how come ruka had the vision of everyone's dragon the fifth dragon was not ptd or bfd we all wat the truth but the subs werent correct so if we get true proof not just something said because jack dosent know what the true fifth dragon looks like ibeleive that yes crow's bfd is his new trump card but that dosent mean it's the fifth dragon

Premature release (rephrasing required)
If we want to be incredibly anal, there is a section of this page that reads, "So far 5 of the Five Dragons have been released in the OCG and TCG...". This is technically not true (yet), as Blackfeather Dragon does not see an official release until February 20th, 2010 in Japan. If, however, by "release" in the card games it is simply meant that they are known, then nothing further needs changing.

Gerhardified 23:13, February 3, 2010 (UTC)

Put Protection Back
Some users keep adding Blackfeather Dragon as the Fifth Dragon even if there is no proof. I think that we have to wait again and put the Protection thing back to stop fans from adding Blackfeather Dragon.OMG! You did it 23:17, February 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * Agreed, cause to me, we do not have enough proof.Altyrell 23:19, February 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * Jack's dialogue was "あれがシグナーの５体目の龍", which means "This is the fifth Signer Dragon". -- Deltaneos (talk) 23:22, February 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * I understand, and the possibility that they could write that in but have him mistaken the Marks reacting for the 5th Dragon. I'm sorry for wanting to wait until we got further proof and reasoning as to why the 5th Dragon that was shown battling the Earthbounds in the past via Luna's vision is different in looks to the Blackfeather Dragon.Altyrell 23:27, February 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * Not having backstory does NOT change the facts. You might never have the answer you seek in the time you want it, but that doesn't change what Blackfeather Dragon is.  And the answer is extraordinary.  The Dragon is set when you are made a Signer.  It does not FOLLOW Signers around, but your Dragon will eventually find it.  The whole show is built on spirituality.  What is fact is that the battle has happened every 5000 years, that would mean 10000 years ago as well as 20000.  What this means is that there's no way (until told) to know that these Dragons were at the previous battle, nor does it take in account what happens when a Dragon is lost, destroyed or a new Signer is given his.  Other than that dream, all is speculation so no one has the right to say something is any more set in stone than another "theory."  All we have is to take what is in the NOW and go forward.  Looking like GGD is irrelvant as GGD does not belong to Crow, he has HIS OWN Signer Dragon.  GGD technically belongs to Rudger and he is lost.  ShinobiPhoenix 23:36, February 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * This probably isn't the place to ask, but what the hell is a "GGD"? --Blue (Talk) 23:38, February 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * "Golden Gaia Dragon" a fan name for the other fifth Dragon. -- Deltaneos (talk) 01:15, February 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * I've locked this page and the Signers article. One on each side of the argument, until we can come to some sort of agreement. -- Deltaneos (talk) 23:55, February 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * What agreement? This is like Congress passing a law that supports religious arguments on one issue and science and fact on the same one with a different law.  This is just hating.  Plain and simple.  Nothing more than people ignoring facts because they don't play into their own fantasies.  Just like Crow being a Signer, Rua not being a Signer, Godwin not being a Signer, 4Kids CLAIMING that Godwin was the Signer only to be wrong and had to take it back since they were just pulling more of their "we don't like character development" crap.  Just like 5D's taking over and GX getting cancelled.  The fact remains that until they give an explanation, we have to go with exactly where the story is at present.  You can't middle-ground people who aren't ever coming to the middle.  Else you get the equivalent of what is happening right now on the Health Care Debate.  How is it if the opposite had been true ( as it was with Rua), people went along with it (the ones who said he was vs the ones who said he wasn't), but when it comes to the more logical side being right, suddenly it's about playing Obama.  ShinobiPhoenix 00:07, February 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * Because saying "Power Tool Dragon" was the fifth Dragon was introducing unproven facts, making it completely out of the question. Saying that it's not 100% known if BFD is the fifth Dragon is being cautious and not introducing unproven facts. One was fan theory vs. unconfirmed. This is whether or not we're to accept something questionable that was said in the anime as a fact. The latter is something that is worth discussing.
 * For anyone only reading now, believe it or not, I am the same side as ShinobiPhoenix on saying that we should call BFD a Signer Dragon.
 * I think we should follow what's said in the anime. We should follow what we're told, otherwise we may as well doubt everything we hear in the series. If we find out later, that he was wrong, it's not us who're at fault. -- Deltaneos (talk) 01:15, February 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * At this point, I'm pretty sure this is turning into the Smoke Monster of 5D's. We may never hear the answer and the writers may even PURPOSELY never tell us to make us go more crazy (we watch because we want answers, Lost, Heroes, Decade, all do it), so we can't go around stalling an article because people want to wait until facts catch up to their fantasies .  Godwin was wrong and we just went and did the edits that were supposed be done and when he was turned into a Signer for 3 episodes it was changed again and when he lost it and it went to Crow it was changed YET again.  Besides facts, we went with it because they like Godwin and don't like Crow or Rua.  That's the only reason we're getting people fighting this hard about it.  They don't like Crow, they don't like his Deck winning tournaments and they don't like his Dragon (not until someone breaks it and suddenly it's broken).  We edit AFTER the facts prove the point.  We shouldn't leave it open to discussion when there's several concrete facts in our face.  I'm all for locking it if that needs to be done to prevent the obvious vandalism, but it should be locked with the correct information on there.  ShinobiPhoenix 02:32, February 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * The hell, when did someone ever say in this discussion that they didn't believe Blackfeather Dragon to be the 5th Dragon because they didn't like crow, or that they didn't like that his deck wins tournaments or anything there of. To my knowledge the only counter argument i've stated and others have stated in regards to not thinking or wanting to wait on more information was because the Blackfeather Dragon and the Dragon that was shown to have battled the Earthbounds do not look at all like each other. That has nothing to do with whether we like or don't like Crow or his deck or any other reason thereof. There is also Facts that say BFD isn't the Fifth Dragon just AS there is facts that say it is. Fact against it being the Fifth Dragon we saw the fifth dragon face the Earthbounds and it doesn't look like BFD and Fact for it being the Fifth Dragon is with what Jack had stated. I'm perfectly fine with saying BFD is the Signer Dragon but we cannot say that it is THE Fifth Dragon due to simple fact they don't look alike, and for all we know is that they could be 2 very different Dragons. Possible Explanation is that the Dragon does in fact reflect it's user in that the Ancestors of the Signers used those Dragons and not to mention we do not know what impact with what Crimson Dragon made when it made Crow the (final) 5th Signer. So, i believe that IF we are going to have BFD as the 5th Dragon then we have to make note of the fact that the past and present "5th Dragon's" are different while leaving it open for if/when we find out why the change (if we ever find out when).Altyrell 03:35, February 4, 2010 (UTC)

Can the Discussion Page be cleaned some?
I mean to get rid of some of the information that is either out dated or doesn't belong (ie bringing Real World Political talk to prove a point).Altyrell 01:21, February 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * It was added as a contribution to a relevant argument. I don't think it should be removed. -- Deltaneos (talk) 01:27, February 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * Not to mention who gives one the right to think you can edit other people's statements in the talk area. I guess I should edit your statements that I don't agree with or understand.  Oh wait, that would be wrong, literally and morally.  This isn't the article itself (which for the most part is supposed to be based more on cold facts), it's discussion with both relative discussion and comparisons to similar situations to better move forward to a proper solution.   "He who does not look back at others' mistakes is doomed to repeat them."   It's there because that is EXACTLY how people are acting on this case and it almost looks like they are trying to down the same path.  Learn from those who already screwed up something for the rest of it due to their own bias and proclivities.  I guess trial lawyers should stop citing previous cases and verdicts when debating in courts.  Leaving opening a discussion that is based on fact for a bunch of people who would prefer to ignore those facts if it will allow them to "keep the hope" longer or disrupt due process for what they prefer WOULD happen is exactly what I was referring to.  The same applies here as in "real life."  ShinobiPhoenix 01:44, February 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * First, what i meant was that not every Forum User is from the United States or could care less about Politics. Another reason why i specifically mentioned the Political Comment is because it could possibly take the Discussion Off-Topic and onto Discussions about Politics or in this regard it might go off-topic and onto Health Care or whatever. Second, reason why people should be careful when bringing in other comparisons is that it can lead to Discussions about those comparisons. I simply asked that it be gotten rid of so that it didn't accidentally derail the Discussion Page.Altyrell 01:53, February 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * It's not whether you care or don't care about the subject of the comparison, it's a comparison for context. Context of being people being counterproductive and disruptive out of bias. What makes you think I'm American?  I live in England.  I could easily make a different comparison, but the point the comparison needed to be made and I picked one with a strong and current resonance with a similar problem because we are going down that path to where nothing would ever ACTUALLY be agreed on for the same reason as the problem being compared.  Blackfeather Dragon vs Golden Gaia Dragon may NEVER been resolved in such a way or promptly enough to satisfy fans so allowing people to disrupt the current facts to let them save face and harbor their own bias disbelief for a little while longer is just the same.  When the facts reflected CHANGE, that should be when edits happen, not arguing about it before all the way until your point if any proves true.  ShinobiPhoenix 02:01, February 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * This section itself is much more off-topic. Forget about it and focus on discussing whether or not we're to say that "Black Feather Dragon" is the fifth Dragon. -- Deltaneos (talk) 02:09, February 4, 2010 (UTC)

Compromise
Here is a simple compromise that might calm everyone down. Add Blackfeather Dragon and Crow, but leave the Fifth Dragon as well or even rename the Fifth Dragon to something simple, that way if at some point in the future the "former" Fifth Dragon ever shows up then we can make any necessary changes. Does that sound like a fair compromise?Altyrell 03:58, February 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure if that was the actual issue at hand here, but yeah I'd go with that. As long as Blackfeather Dragon is considered a Signer Dragon, then its ok. The actual "Fifth Dragon" page shouldn't be altered (yet), but Blackfeather Dragon is a Signer Dragon for Crow, and thats what should be recognized. --Sky Scourge God 04:06, February 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * Having 6 dragons in the table on an article called Five Dragons doesn't seem right. If we're calling "Black Feather Dragon" and the original fifth sperate dragons, the "Five" means "five at a time". I think we should split the table, like on the Signers article. Have the current five in the main table and a seperate table for the previous Dragons Dragon. -- Deltaneos (talk) 12:43, February 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * Fair point and that would be better to have it split like that, however you could have the 2nd Table be the Dragons that fought the Earthbounds.Altyrell 17:54, February 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * There's a problem with doing a seperate table for the ancient battle five. They weren't cards back then, so there's no point including the Level, ATK, DEF or Attribute columns. We don't know who their corresponding Signers were back then, so there's no point including a column for that either. That just leaves a column for the dragons and there's no point using a table for just that. -- Deltaneos (talk) 20:34, February 4, 2010 (UTC)

oh hey guys....
not trying to be a dick but...I TOLD YOU SO!!!! and like Yanagi said way back towards the beginning....the dragons may have changed forms over time but their spirits still live on. And for those that still are anal about saying that BFD isnt the 5th dragon, if it wasnt, which is IS, would 1: all 5 signer marks glow, and 2: why would Jack say that it is the 5th Signer Dragon? can ya answer that? probably not!Hairball420 20:38, February 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * As Deltaneos said above...
 * "We're not saying you're wrong to say "Blackfeather Dragon" is the fifth Dragon. We don't know if that's true or not. We're saying you're wrong to say it's known that "Blackfeather Dragon" is the fifth Dragon. If it does actually turn out that "Blackfeather Dragon" is the fifth Dragon, you won't "have told me so" anything. At this moment in time we don't know that it's the last dragon or not. If it does turn out that is, it doesn't change the fact that at the time we had this converstion it was unknown. "
 * --Blue (Talk) 20:38, February 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * ok dude, what part of Jack said It's the fifth dragon do you not get? and if it wasnt, like i said above, THEN THE MARKS WOULDNT HAVE GLOWED LIKE THAT!, oh, and i forgot to say it how i said i would in the style of abridged Marik....I FRECKIN TOLD YOU GUYS SO!!!!......lolHairball420 20:43, February 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * Because I'm lazy: "Looks like you missed the entire point of that post. I was just pointing out how you didn't "tell anyone so" because most people just wanted proof before throwing out theories about BFD." If it's been confirmed that BFD is the new 5th, then I fully accept that it is. --Blue (Talk) 20:45, February 6, 2010 (UTC)

I'm going to try to remain calm when saying the next part: Blackfeather Dragon is A Fifth Dragon but it is NOT THE Fifth Dragon.Altyrell 20:47, February 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * are you one of the ones that are hellbent sayin that its supposed to look exactly like it did in the ancient battle?Hairball420 20:50, February 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * hairball you're wrong the translations arnt one hundred percent acurate jack could have said "is this the fifth signer dragon?" so dude quit adding speculation you are talking about the english episodes the actual translation for what yanagi said is something along these lines "the dragons have changed over time" which means they became cards and how would it be that all the dragons stay the same excpet for the fifth it makes no logical sense so hairball next time USE SOME FUCKING LOGIC!! and dont just go one believeing what the crummy subs say


 * Hairball420 you have not "told us so" anything. You said "Blackfeather Dragon" is the fifth Dragon and we didn't say that you were right or wrong. We disagreed with you saying that we should change the article to say that is the fifth Dragon back before we knew that it was. I still stand by the decision to have not changed the article to say it was back on November 13. I even told you back then that if it later turned out that BFD was the fifth Dragon, I would still stand by the decision. It's alright to say it on the article now that we have proof, but it wasn't back when we didn't.
 * We called it speculation, back then and we were right. Just because your theory turned out to be right, doesn't mean that it wasn't speculation. If I made a prediction on how Yu-Gi-Oh! 5D's will end, it is speculation. If it later turns out to be right, it would still have been speculation when I made the prediction and we should certainly not change articles to accomodate the prediction unless it is proven. -- Deltaneos (talk) 22:54, February 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * This is so funny. I think I'll make a sub of my own and change "Fifth Dragon" into "Ancient Jellybean King." BETTER EDIT THE PAGE. I swear to god. Who cares if it's the Fifth Dragon or not? You people need to chill out and remember that it's just a card game/anime. And real classy in gloating about the opinion of yourself and about 2 million other people just because it turned out it might be true.--YamiWheeler 23:23, February 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * This is a Wiki, where information is to be correct, not some fan club site where we can nickname things what we want. DemonGodAsura 08:01, February 9, 2010 (UTC)

Fifth Dragon
you guys even tough yusei and jack said that blackfeather dragon is the fifth dragon there is a posibility that the missing dragon that we all seen may still show up because take it this way. Episode 100th states that an Earthbound vs Machine Emperor duel. Well what if the maker of the show wants us to beelive that the last dragon is blackfeather dragon. What if there may be a posibility of a sixth signer that holds the dragon that we've seen. I know this may sound crazy, but it could be true because the dark signers are destroyed and somehow they come back. Well this could mean that there migth be a sisth signer that has the mark of the crimson dragon like rex goodwin had on his chest, but has it on his back. This could mean that he is the true leader of the signers. This may or may not be true, but look of the facts earthbounds return the last dragon is still missing. I know that the old man said they change their apperance, so why didn't the other dragons change as well. this can mean that there is going to be a sixth signer and dragon. Also, because every dragon has come out secret rare in the U.S., so there has to be a least five of the dragons that are. But this is just a prediction.

5thDragon and signer dragon
there has been confirmation that BFD is a Signer dragon whatever you guys say it is the 5th and final dragon so lock it saying its crows Blackfeather Dragon Wings of Darkness Unite! 14:14, February 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * You don't know that it will be the "final" Dragon, cause for all we know the Fifth Dragon could still make an appearance, especially IF the Earthbound Immortals do return.Altyrell 18:28, February 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * What 'confirmation' is there?--YamiWheeler 19:53, February 7, 2010 (UTC)

Blackfeather Dragon and other "Signer Dragons"
"Blackfeather Dragon" is in no way the 5th "Signer Dragon". First, it is not seen in the flashbacks of ancient battles, the Dragons created/summoned by the Crimson Dragon. Second, it is not the 5th Dragon to be used by a Signer, it is currently 7th. "Exploder Dragonwing" was used by Jack, and if you don't want to count that, then count "Sun Dragon Inti" or "Moon Dragon Quilla" of Rex. Yes, Rex was a Signer. Any Dragon used by a Signer, according to all other editors, is a "Signer Dragon", not because it was 1 of the original 5, but because it was used by a Signer. If being used by a Signer completes the criteria for being a "Signer Dragon", then "Blackfeather Dragon" is 7th in use. Also, keep in mind that the previous owner of "Blackfeather Dragon" did not have a Birthmark, and had no knowledge of the 5 Dragons or the Crimson Dragon. Blackfeather Dragon was sealed inside a Duel Runner, which required a password to access. The good intention of Crow's dueling most likely caused the Crimson Dragon to afford Crow the only card available to help him win. So far, there is no evidence that Blackfeather Dragon is in any way connected to the Crimson Dragon. Crow received his Birthmark during a duel, not because he possessed a Dragon, but because he was deemed worthy by destiny. DemonGodAsura 08:14, February 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Should we add the other "Signer Dragons" (such as Exploder Dragonwing, Rex's twin Dragons) since the Article is now known as "Signer Dragons"?Altyrell 22:32, March 6, 2010 (UTC)

Blackfeather Dragon being mistaken as the fifth Dragon
I honestly don't believe BFD is the 5th Dragon because why would they base one of the dragons off of an Archetype. Even if the anime said it was the fifth dragon, the anime could have it in the plot to throw off the true identity of the fifth dragon. Plus the fact that in the image on the main page they dipict another random dragon in there other than BFD while BFD isn't in there, humm... that must mean the BFD has nothing to do with what the ending plot. In simple terms BFD is just another Blackwing Monster to be honest with you. Ahampster1 18:29, February 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * Or as Yanagi said they have changed over time and maybe the dragons shape are based of the current signer therefor it might have changed due to crow being the only signer to not be born one. HelioTrice 18:32, February 8, 2010 (UTC)

Fifth, Blackfeather, and TROLLING
Is it just me or are people just VIOLENTLY immature and stupid on this issue? This is why I keep saying it's just more hatred at not liking Crow and not liking the real life version of Blackfeather Dragon. If people cared about balance and keeping in line with the story, the edits would reflect the importance of both. The current version of the page is more in line with is most appropriate. "Signer Dragons" not "Five Dragons." It is very correct to call Blackfeather the Fifth SIGNER Dragon of the series. That is exactly what it is. Say what you want, Golden Gaia (Fifth) has no physical card, representative or story function right now and Blackfeather beat him to the punch on all 3 accounts. It's not about being a copy of THAT Dragon. That Dragon would never go to Crow anyway, and if it goes ot Rua, it won't be a Signer Dragon. Important, yes, as Rua is a MAIN CHARACTER. Signer Dragon... no. He currently has no Signer attached to him and other than a single dream sequence flashback almost 60 episodes ago, doesn't even exist. If it goes to Bruno or something or Crimson makes Rua a Signer once he earns his place, that's fine too. NONE of these things has happened yet and has no reflection to be posted here. So Fifth Dragon is a Five Dragon from the battle, but most certainly not a Signer Dragon until he shows up and goes to a Signer. Most important... HAS A CARD TO CALL HOME. Blackfeather Dragon is the Fifth SIGNER Dragon of the series. Fifth Signer Dragon, not THAT Fifth Dragon which doesn't even have a name and wouldn't even be the FIFTH Dragon if it shown up as it would be the SIXTH Signer Dragon. ShinobiPhoenix 02:38, February 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Also as if it wasn't obviously, making bad edits while not signed in so all we see if the IP number just makes you more of a troll. Making supports on bad edits done by anonymous people just makes you more obvious.  In fact, it gives less reason to see things your way.

blackfeather dragon
Blackfeather dragon isn't the 5th dragon caz the 5th dragon looks like insect type and it's colour is yellow but black feather is a dragon and his colour is black and doesn;t look like the 5th dragon. rudger was playing with an insect deck and he was a signer so i think this dragon has fall in darkness when he's beaten.

Black feather dragon is not the fifth dragon, sure its used by a signer but the fifth is a whole different dragon BFD was not in that 5 dragons + crimson dragon versus earthbound immortals battle sure it is a signers dragon but that oviously dosnt make it the fifth i have no problem with people calling it the fifth SIGNER dragon... but may whatever deity rocker or movie star you belive in have mercy on you if you should say its the real fifth dragon (crow is awesome)Kazisaki 16:32, February 11, 2010 (UTC)

Signer Dragons vs. Five Dragons
I really think there should have been some discussion before this page was moved from Five Dragons to Signer Dragons. Now that we actually know that 5D's stands for Five Dragons, is Five Dragons not the more official term for them? -- Deltaneos (talk) 20:44, February 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * The 5D's in the title seems to give the term Five Dragons plenty of merit, but what sources use the term Signer Dragons ? Ultimately, we are looking for the official collective term for these Monsters. -- Al-Malik ملك الألعاب 23:17, February 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well the point Del is trying to make is that all six dragons are used by the Signers, but only five exist at a time. So at this conclusion I think Signer is the better title, but if we make it five dragons I think we need to include "previous" dragons section. D.Kaiser (Talk • Contribs • Count) 07:18, February 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * I see. So the problem lies in the ambiguity of the statuses of the Fifth Dragon and Blackfeather Dragon because they make for a total of 6 Dragons. I have two propositions:
 * If the Dragons have been changed over time (in fiction), then Five Dragons would be the title, and Previous Members would be a subtitle.
 * If the members are somehow interchangable in another way, then Signer Dragons (or whichever title does not imply number) would be a title and Five Dragons would be a subtitle, with explanation of the definition and role of the Five Dragons as a team as opposed to the larger Signer Dragons as a group.
 * At any rate, I believe it should be noted that both the "Fifth Dragon" (perhaps it should be renamed in "Unkown Signer Dragon" or something?) and Blackfeather Dragon are placed as the "Fifth Member" one way or another, and that more information will most likely be revleaed in the future. This seems to be a temporary dilemma until the fiction explores this fully. -- Al-Malik ملك الألعاب 08:37, February 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * How can the dragons change if they are known to be the same ones that battled thousands of years ago? Goodwin also said that the Dragons choose their signers, so how could the dragon change from the one we've seen in so many flashbacks to the blackfeather dragon. There has to be a plot hole somewhere. We should just choose to leave it as it is with the five dragons NOT including BFD.--Tapper930 22:37, February 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * If I remember correctly, Tenzen Yanagi mentions that they change throughout time. Also, a lot of the beliefs in YGO have something to do with destiny so if could be that Robert Pearson was just a vessel for Crow to get BFD. D.Kaiser (Talk • Contribs • Count) 01:55, February 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * Except he meant going from Creature to Card Form not completely CHANGED in their Appearance and if they did, then why didn't the other 4 change any? Also, it is not known that Robert Pearson knew of the Signers not to mention he would have zero knowledge of Crow ever becoming a Signer. Also, the Crimson Dragon nor Crow's Marking had ZERO to do with unlocking BFD, it was Crows feelings about the children and helping them that would finally unlock the Compartment.Altyrell 02:56, February 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * Again, I suggested the fact that Pearson may be a vessel for fate, in which case he wouldn't know and there could be many reasons why the dragons change appearance throughout time, but then again I'm not going to make pointless speculations or theories when they are irrelevant to the debate. We know there are six dragons and probably five at a time. We can probably document them in one or two ways: a) Under Signer Dragons where all could be list and there could be a section on the current "5Ds" and the past "5Ds", which in this case is everyone but BFD and the 5th D or b) Do the same thing but with the Five Dragons and have a section being "previous" five dragons. The way I see it all six are SIGNER dragons but they only exist five at a time in which case FIVE is a narrower sub group than SIGNER. So I think that option "a" would be better. D.Kaiser (Talk • Contribs • Count) 04:00, February 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * But BFD isn't the fifth dragon. It would then mean that Pearson was a signer and that is bogus.  We should just remove BFD from the signer dragon list, and replace it with the unknown dragon.--Tapper930 05:19, February 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * This section is for discussing the name of the article. You seem to want the name to be left alone, regardless of whether we consider "Blackfeather Dragon" to be one of these. There are plenty of sections above, which discuss "Blackfeather Dragon's" inclusion. Feel free to post your arguments in one of them, but could this section stay focused on what the article should be named? -- Deltaneos (talk) 19:46, February 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'd suggest moving Fifth Dragon to Unknown Signer Dragon and then keeping this page the way it is or adding Unknown Signer Dragon to the table with a note below it stating that no one's seen to posses that Dragon as a card. Also, Tapper, it's never been said one way or another if Pearson was a Signer, for all we know he could have been one of the Signers of Roman's generation. Since there was no need for them to unite or save the world or anything, that generations Signers never met each other. Not saying this is what happened, just posting my theory.


 * Wow. People are being dumb. Watch the anime. It was made official, by the japanese anime, that BFD IS the fifth dragon. --Joshuamaru 02:37, March 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * Blackstone Dresden and Joshuamaru: Again, this section is for discussing what title to use for this article. See one of the many previous sections about "Blackfeather Dragon" and the Dragon seen in Luna's dream to discuss them. -- Deltaneos (talk) 02:59, March 3, 2010 (UTC)