Forum:CardTable2 discussion

For anyone interested, I have finally deployed the styles for the CardTable2 update, meaning it's easy(er) for anyone to test it now:


 * 1) Clear your browser's cache to be sure you have the styles.
 * 2) Visit a random card article (you can use this link), and open it in a second tab (you should be able to right-click the "Edit" button and click "Open in new tab" or your browser's equivalent).
 * 3) If you haven't already, in one of the tabs, edit the card page. Change the   line to , and preview the page.
 * 4) Switch back and forth between the two tabs, comparing information in the tables.
 * 5) When you note discrepancies, [ start a new section] on this page, with a link to the card page as the section header, and list the differences you find. Some things that should not be listed:
 * 6) * The different overall appearance of the table - I'll take suggestions on improving the style, and you can report stuff you genuinely believe to be bugs (if you do so, note the exact version of browser, operating system, and screen resolution that you're using), but the overall look is what is going to be deployed.
 * 7) * Things that are obviously bugs in the current version of CardTable2 which are fixed in the sandbox version. If you're not sure, list them anyways.
 * 8) * The much more (vertically) compact statuses table - the new version fills one row completely before starting another row, and empty sections are completely hidden.
 * 9) * Redlinked categories - these are maintenance categories, and will be created as hidden categories when the new version is deployed.

You should not save any page using the sandbox version, and I'd appreciate testing in both the Wikia and Monobook skins, for those that know how to switch between them.

Comments/suggestions/discussion
Is the line at the bottom of the table meant to be missing? (It was there in the last card table). -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 08:41, March 2, 2011 (UTC)


 * Nope, that's a known display bug on some browsers (some other browsers have the bottom line on the right two columns missing instead, when the right columns are shorter than the image column =/ ). 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 09:04, March 2, 2011 (UTC)

Whenever I click on a link to expand a list (such as a list of the sets a card comes in) on its card page, my browser automatically scrolls back to the top of the page, which I find very annoying. Is it a problem with my browser, or an issue with the new layout of the site? In the latter case, when do you plan to fix it? – AtmaX 02:22, March 7, 2011 (UTC)


 * That's a known issue, and unrelated to the template update. I don't know what's causing it, exactly, otherwise it'd have been fixed by now. =/ 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 03:48, March 7, 2011 (UTC)

I was about to put this in Template talk:CardTable2, but since it it says 'suggestions' here, I'll put it here for now.
 * 1) Can Maintenance Costs be made into an 'effect type' as discussed at Forum:Improving "Card Effect Type(s):"? (Opinions on the other ideas are also appreciated)
 * 2) For Neo-Spacian Marine Dolphin and Neo-Spacian Twinkle Moss, a Condition is its first effect, and the 2nd effect is the Summoning Condition. However, (not sure if it's a bug) Summoning Condition does not appear on the page if it isn't listed as the 1st effect type, can this be fixed? -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 00:41, March 23, 2011 (UTC)


 * Perhaps it'd be better to introduce "cost" or "condition" parameters?
 * I think that is intentional, but I've never understood it myself, either. If Delt has no complaints, I'll change up the effect parameters so that any effect type can be used for any of the parameters, instead of being limited after the first parameter. 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 03:24, March 23, 2011 (UTC)


 * 1. "Condition" is already in the template. However, "Cost" (which is also already in the template) is different from "Maintenance Cost". Costs are things you pay during activation (e.g. Trade-In) and maintenance costs (similar to Summoning Conditions) is a type of Condition, and is paid only when the card says so, and generally, you need to pay multiple times if you want to keep the card on the field (e.g. Koa'ki Meiru Urnight)
 * Also, "Maintenance Cost" should currently be the last major 'effect' type that is distinctively mentioned in rulings, that isn't in the template.
 * 2. Alright. -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 08:36, March 30, 2011 (UTC)


 * ^ Bump this. -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 00:06, April 15, 2011 (UTC)


 * Should mention that this has been implemented. So /topic.

Card Type::Effect Monster ignores Ritual/Fusion/Synchro/Xyz monsters that are also Effect Monsters; not sure if deliberate. Why is the 'synchromaterial1' parameter in the 'Synchro Material for' SMW search, but 'synchromaterial2+' is in 'Synchro Material'? I've deliberately added it to show this at Synchro Substitute Monsters (The same for Fusion Materials as well) -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 01:52, August 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * Effect Monster handling is a bit of a mess, IIRC - it should really be cleaned up and Non-Effect Monster tagging should happen automatically; first I want to make sure the definition is correct though. I also want to get italicized lores for Normal Monsters happening automatically, instead of having to be hardcoded on every page as it is currently.
 * I think that's probably a result of copypaste fail that never got fixed; I've noticed it myself. Which form would you prefer to continue using, "X Material" or "X Material for" (or maybe something else)? 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 02:07, August 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * I was thinking that it might be like that just to sort out those Orange Effect Monster cards to those other Effect Monster cards; for some reason.
 * 'Synchro Material for' makes more sense on the lists imo. -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 02:18, August 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * Yeah, it would probably be a good idea to maintain some distinction between "all Effect Monsters" and "orange-background Effect Monsters". I'll have to have a look at CardTabe2's code and see how it currently handles the whole thing, then see what occurs to me. Any suggestions?
 * Not to repeat myself, but could you tell me how to tell if a given monster is a non-Effect monster? The article isn't exactly clear, and I always thought the summoning text on e.g. Ritual Monsters was an effect. 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 04:33, August 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * Well; in WC11
 * Ritual monsters like Garma Sword is a non-effect monster; and can be sent by White Elephant's Gift.
 * So I guess that would mean
 * This card can only be Ritual Summoned with the Ritual Spell Card, "card"." is not an effect.
 * Similar to how
 * "monster" + "monster" of Fusions is not an effect.
 * 1 Tuner + 1 or more non-Tuner Monsters of Synchros is not an effect. -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 04:53, August 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * I've updated the non-Effect Monsters page with that, and more.
 * We could just leave the Effect Monsters as it is, then on a Concept page, list all actual Effect Monsters and use that whenever we need to use it.
 * I use Effect type::~* to list all of them. But it includes Tokens and soon, Spells and Traps with effect types, like Blackwing - Boobytrap.
 * so I use |Fusion Monster||Ritual Monster||Synchro Monster||Xyz Monster Effect type::~* for all actual Effect Monsters. -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 06:49, August 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * I created Concept:All Effect Monsters considering the large amounts of searches we have here for monsters like Sangan and Mystic Tomato, which search in the Main Deck only, so having a separate concept for the actual Effect Monsters without having the change all those values should be the best way to go... and I never noticed that Sangan can search for Ritual Monsters ... -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 07:37, August 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm wondering if there are any rulings related to the subject. If so, it wouldn't hurt to mention them as well... Other than that, your edits helped clear it up a lot for me.
 * Instead of |Fusion Monster||Ritual Monster||Synchro Monster||Xyz Monster, perhaps you could use Card Category::Monster Card Card Type::!Token Monster (I haven't actually tested that)? 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 13:12, August 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * I tried that before; but it gave me the Spells and Traps as well. -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 13:26, August 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * I would like to add one thing; try put in Card Type::!Spell Card Card Type::!Trap Card as that can help prevent you from adding the said cards. -- F  r  e  d  C  a  t  13:29, August 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * The obvious ! negation answer never works. -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 13:35, August 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * So you're telling me that Che- Coffeedude also got Token in that box? -- F  r  e  d  C  a  t  13:37, August 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * In SMW '!' does not mean 'not', it means things that have values other than whatever you are '!ing'
 * So if you do that, you end up with them kinda cancelling each other; aka, it didn't work.
 * Wait; I overlooked dinoguy's Card Category::Monster Card part... seems to work. -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 13:45, August 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I've never been particularly fond of SMW's various logical operators (for instance, I have yet to find a way to query pages that do not have a particular property, which makes no sense because it would be so immensely useful, and making stuff like !-negation kinda-the-same-as-what-a-programmer-expects-only-not-really-haha-fooled-you is never a good idea =P ). 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 16:58, August 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * Look like I should removing the clown punch glove so Falzar can realize what the hell is going on with his brain. -- F  r  e  d  C  a  t  17:00, August 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * Yea, we really need a not-Nomi, not-Semi-Nomi and a not-Cannot Special Summon class.
 * There's only 3 cards which affect non-Effect Monsters, most of their rulings aren't really common situations, except for the ones that are already on the page (e.g. Gemini and Tokens).
 * The ones I added to the page are general consensus by well known members (/Judges) of multiple forums (Deus ex Machina included); and were cross-referenced/checked with WC11 (because I can). -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 00:26, August 15, 2011 (UTC)


 * We use for anime only cards; and that removes the Rulings, Errata and Tips links.
 * But CardTable2 doesn't have a way to do this. If we intend to keep those off anime only cards, then it should be removed from here as well. (If the card is available in a video game or card game, show the extra links) -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 12:03, September 1, 2011 (UTC)


 * This is something I've realized (there are also other modes in Navigation that remove links; we need to handle those in CardTable2 as well). While we're at it, I've been wanting to have Navigation pull that info from the main card article automatically (via SMW) for a while now; I just haven't gotten around to it. When this stuff does get added, though, I'll also add code to CardTable2 that checks for the existence of these unwanted pages and assigns relevant tracking categories if they exist. 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 21:34, September 1, 2011 (UTC)


 * Also, I need to rename Navigation already ("Navigation" is way too ambiguous a name), but can't decide on a better one: "Card information"? "Card navigation"? Or something more complicated (probably not), like "Card information pages"? 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 21:36, September 1, 2011 (UTC)


 * Template:GetEngName screws up badly when SMW is turned off; so unless a fallback can be made on that and the navigation, I don't think using SMW to do the navigation temps would be too good. If a fallback can be made, then I would fully support the automated links.
 * CardNavigation sounds fine. -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 02:42, September 2, 2011 (UTC)


 * GetEngName wouldn't have anything to do with it (and since you pointed it out, I just added a fallback for when SMW is off). The fallback for Navigation would simply be displaying the otherwise-hidden links; CardTable2 wouldn't need any fallback, since it would be using the values of various parameters directly to decide if and when to hide some of the links.
 * To be honest, I really don't like "Card navigation" as much as "Card information", but I did ask... =D 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 08:04, September 2, 2011 (UTC)


 * As in; GetEngName uses SMW to search for that name and returns the English Name.
 * and Navigation would use SMW to search for the name and return what kind of card it is.
 * So, I'm referring to how it's the same principle.
 * If we go for the literal meaning; then, yes, Card information would be more suited. -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 08:17, September 2, 2011 (UTC)


 * Aah, you were just drawing a parallel. Gotcha. 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 09:02, September 2, 2011 (UTC)

Can a tracking category be added to track which pages still use effect1, effect2, effect3 and effect4? (and any other deprecated parameters) -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 14:06, November 10, 2011 (UTC)


 * Most of them are already tracked; I was going to do so for the effectN parameters as well on my next edit to the template. =) 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 16:41, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

Bug reports
The ruby text under the card name on some pages displays an error similar to this: "" 邪( じゃ)龍(< /rp>りゅう) アナンタ" cannot be used as a page name in this wiki." - Silver Glaceon (talk • contribs) 01:29, March 16, 2011 (UTC)


 * That's not related to the CardTable2 updates. The extension Semantic MediaWiki is acting buggy. It's treating some things that are supposed to be text as pagenames. Since all those tags can't be used in a page, that error message is given. It's the same reason a lot of things which aren't supposed to be linked are appearing as red links. The problem is being looked at however. -- Deltaneos (talk) 01:35, March 16, 2011 (UTC)


 * Actually, it's just a cache problem now. If you add ?action=purge to the end of the url of an affected page it will fix the ruby text.
 * Other things that are appearing as red links need the cache cleared on their property (null edit the property) first. You don't have to understand that part. -- Deltaneos (talk) 01:40, March 16, 2011 (UTC)

Lists of tuner is just showing 4 results and no further results button. —This unsigned comment was made by Dzavaba (talk • contribs) 22:45, 2011 March 22


 * 1) On Talk Pages and Forum Pages, be sure to sign your posts.
 * 2) It's not really a card table problem:
 * As with all other lists, Medium::TCG||OCG is broken, so just replace it with Class 1::Official
 * For some reason, we can't decide whether to call them 'Tuner Monster' or 'Tuner Monsters' when searching for them, so for now, I've changed it so that it includes both. -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 00:41, March 23, 2011 (UTC)


 * We might currently have a bug with either SMW or page move caching. It's necessary to use both Tuner Monster and Tuner Monsters at the moment, since some pages use the singular and some the plural (another cache issue). In the past, if you used a redirect as value (only if the property is Type:Page) it looked at the page the redirect points to, so Monster Type::Tuner Monsters and Monster Type::Tuner Monster should be the same in queries and in assigning properties to pages. It shouldn't be necessary to use |Tuner Monster. -- Deltaneos (talk) 01:28, March 23, 2011 (UTC)


 * That being said, I've changed CardTable2 to use the singular names for all card types (well, I may have managed to miss one or two cases, but I got the majority, and the most commonly-used ones). 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 03:26, March 23, 2011 (UTC)

For some reason, if the only effect of a monster is either a Condition Effect (e.g. Cyber Harpie Lady) or a Quick Effect (e.g. Blackwing - Kalut the Moon Shadow), the card won't show up on SMW searches. -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 13:11, April 9, 2011 (UTC)


 * Is this for a specific query or when searching for anything? I've tried a few searches for "Cyber Harpie Lady" and she showed up each time. -- Deltaneos (talk) 13:35, April 9, 2011 (UTC)


 * It's while searching for a specific effect types (like in the links; Condition Effect and List of Quick Effect Monster Cards)
 * and also, if it was asked to return what effect type it has, it would show up as nothing. I was trying to make a list of all effect monsters and their effects so I can quickly check if we had them right.
 * From that search, Barrier Resonator, Blackwing - Calima the Haze, etc don't return their effect types. -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 13:41, April 9, 2011 (UTC)


 * It's still like that, so I don't think it's a temporary glitch. -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 00:06, April 15, 2011 (UTC)


 * Ok, I only just noticed it, but this seems to have been fixed.
 * The only problem now is that for the cards like Neo-Spacian Twinkle Moss, if 'Summon' is not first, it will link to 'Summon Effect' instead of 'Summon Condition'. -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 13:05, June 23, 2011 (UTC)


 * Should be fixed now; I just allowed any of the effectN parameters to have any supported value. On that note, it may be possible to combine them all into a single "effect" parameter and use  to sort them out. Hmm... 「 ダイノ ガイ  千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 17:50, June 23, 2011 (UTC)


 * So... arrays would mean that it will be possible to have any number of effect types, without having to repeat that paragraph code for each effect type?
 * Also, if I'm not mistaken, Meklord Emperor Wisel has 5 different effects, but CardTable2 can only go up to 4 at the moment. -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 07:39, June 26, 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, that's exactly what it means - you could have something like . ;) 「 ダイノ ガイ  千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 06:28, June 27, 2011 (UTC)

Broken Card Appearances
Akiza Izinski (card), Crow Hogan (card), Jack Atlas (card) and Yusei Fudo (card) have broken Card Appearances. -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 00:24, January 4, 2012 (UTC)


 * I think an  could be added in the code on Template:Card table anime and manga appearances to check and see that what's entered is a number before converting it to a link. That way if it's a number, it gets converted and if not, whatever was entered gets printed. -- Deltaneos (talk) 00:38, January 4, 2012 (UTC)


 * I've actually known about that for a while now; I just hadn't looked at it too closely until now. At any rate, it should be fixed, at least whenever SMW is on; fixing it in all cases would require grossly less efficient code in the fallback - basically, cutting the input into pieces delimited by commas, checking each piece to see if it's a link, and if not, formatting it as one - and doing that individually for *every* piece of the input, since when SMW is down, we don't have any type of array or loop function. 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 03:57, January 4, 2012 (UTC)


 * I forgot to mention that there's also a complaint on those pages, like: "Akiza Izinski" is not in the list of possible values for this property
 * -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 04:00, January 4, 2012 (UTC)


 * That would be caused by the weird types, and I don't think fixing it would be worth the weight of the extra code the fix would require in CardTable2 (since it would probably only be needed on those four and maybe, at most, a half-dozen or so other articles). Maybe it'd be acceptable to note the types directly above the lores? 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 04:12, January 4, 2012 (UTC)


 * I would agree to that. -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 04:26, January 4, 2012 (UTC)


 * What about a new parameter for cards that only appear in opening/ending themes, then? We also have cards like "Fire Dragon". And for the longest time the Fifth Dragon as well.
 * I've actually been meaning to bring this up for a while. We count opening/ending theme cards in character Decklists, so shouldn't we document that in CardTable2 somehow. I mean even in cases where the cards do appears in episodes. Cheesedude (talk • contribs) 19:01, January 4, 2012 (UTC)


 * That's something I've been thinking about since I first noticed the problem with them in the appearances parameters. I think a new, dedicated parameter is probably about the best solution we could have, though I'm still not entirely sure just where the parameter output would go. 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 20:45, January 4, 2012 (UTC)

Background on image cell
Any thoughts on changing the background for the card image cell to a light gray (something along the lines of DDDDFF )? Playing around with it in Chrome's element inspector, it's a much nicer effect than the current white background, IMO. -- as 66.116.9.175 (talk) 21:55, April 11, 2011 (UTC)


 * Can you provide a screenshot of what it looks like? similar to the one above so it can be compared? -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 00:03, April 15, 2011 (UTC)


 * I actually personally prefer the current white. -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 01:52, August 14, 2011 (UTC)

Effect parameter unification

 * Moved from User talk:Cheesedude

You can now add an unlimited number of effect tags to cards via use of the  parameter; this is ultimately intended to deprecate the existent   parameters and usage is the same as for the anime and manga appearances templates - each effect gets separated by a comma-space (e.g.  ). Note that I haven't done anything similar for   yet, so don't try that there. Also, could you tell me if this list of possible values is complete: None, ???, Condition, Continuous, Flip, Ignition, Lingering, Maintenance Cost, Quick, Summon, Trigger? Have fun now! =D I'm telling you this because as I recall, you do a reasonable amount of work with tagging effect types; if this isn't the case, you can ignore this or repost it on the talk pages of editors who do do such work. ;) 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 21:03, August 8, 2011 (UTC)


 * Cool. I'll start implementing that as I edit for other reasons then. And no, I don't add effect types. I do so for other things like "summon1", "mst1", etc, but I don't actually know the difference between most effect types (in fact, I think I may have added "Trigger" to a few non-monster card articles before I realized it was a monster only effect). I would contact Falzar if I were you. Cheesedude (talk • contribs) 21:12, August 8, 2011 (UTC)


 * And so you did, even though you're not me. XD I really should try paying a bit more attention to who tends to edit what around here... ;P 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000


 * Dino's correct, as I don't get a comment back from Falzar lately. -- F  r  e  d  C  a  t  21:29, August 8, 2011 (UTC)


 * Wel, you did say in your original post to post it somewhere else. So I did. I think that LastMinute also does some work in that area. Cheesedude (talk • contribs) 23:38, August 8, 2011 (UTC)


 * There's a reason why I put a clock on my usertalk page...
 * Yay, finally.
 * It's probably worth doing to the other types as well ("summon1", "mst1").
 * Trade-In has Cost, which ought to be used more for Spells and Traps, since there were no objections last time I asked... not sure if it would be worth doing to monsters, as that would make their lists long and confusing.
 * Are you going to bot the change from effectN --> effect?
 * What would happen to SMW searches if you put something like Continuous, Continuous? I've got a list of ~450 monsters with effects that have multiple effects with duplicate effect types. The current list 1 of each effect type is bound to be confusing to some people. (edit:~450 should be the almost all, if not all, of them) -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 01:20, August 9, 2011 (UTC)


 * Just to note, "summon" is already a parameter, but it's used only on Token Monster pages, so that will have be renamed if do this for the rest. Cheesedude (talk • contribs) 04:09, August 9, 2011 (UTC)


 * I'll need a complete list of possible values for each additional parameter group I'm to update like this (SMW doesn't have any easy way of just outputting a given property's used values that I've ever found =P ), so that I can make sure the delimiter character isn't used in any of those values, and as Cheesedude pointed out, we'll also have to figure out what to do when we have conflicting parameters.
 * I've been considering just rolling the "effectstN" parameters in with "effect"/"effectN" for at least a bit now... What're your thoughts on that, Falzar?
 * Yes, this'll definitely be bot work - a simple, straightforward, mind-numbingly repetitive job. =)
 * TBH, I don't really know. I don't think it will change SMW queries at all, but the best way to find out would just be to test it out. 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 16:45, August 10, 2011 (UTC)


 * Didn't have time to reply to this last time I was on; lets just say, I don't like the timetable for this semester; literally full days, with a tiny break on Wednesday and Thursday; and almost nothing on 2 other days.
 * Cheesedude doesn't mind us keeping this discussion on this one page right?
 * For monster effect types, would it work if you get a SMW query that lists every card and its effect type; then replace all occurrences in the list above (and, line breaks and the card names) ? Assuming that it does show everything that was used, after doing that, I ended up with an empty list, which means everything got covered; however, there were no ??? found. (EDIT: Test shows that putting something random also shows up on the list everything method, so we should have everything listed there)
 * For S/T effect types; I couldn't figure out what to use to list them; (for monster effect types, it's |?Effect type), the Special:Browse page didn't show anything I could use either.
 * So you're asking if we should keep EffectN for a while? If the SMW searches covers both using the same queries, then it shouldn't really matter.
 * Just noticed that the 'Cost' one that I mentioned is in 'effectstN', which is different to what monsters use. (striked out above comment.)
 * I'll test it on Crystal Beast Amethyst Cat; the one Deus Ex Machina used as the example. (EDIT: Your're right, on the page it'll show as 2 separate effect types, but on the search, it shows up as 1, so it works as it was intended) -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 12:25, August 11, 2011 (UTC)


 * I feel your pain there. Or rather I have in the past and will again in about two weeks. My schedule this coming semester isn't too great either.
 * No, I don't. Go ahead. Cheesedude (talk • contribs) 16:14, August 11, 2011 (UTC)


 * Good luck with schooling Uni; don't feel too bad if you make me wait for replies (there's plenty else to keep me busy in the meantime). ;)
 * It's rather gimmicky, but could work. What's really needed is a built-in way to query the unique values of a given property.
 * S/T effect types don't currently get put in a property; they just get linked. The possible values are "Act" (for Activation Requirements), "Cost" (for Costs), "Effect" (for Card Effects), and "Lingering" (for Lingering Effects); all other values are ignored. I don't see any reason not to reuse Property:Effect type for them, though.
 * No, I'm asking if we shouldn't just combine the monster and S/T effect stuff into (ultimately) the one "effect" parameter. The "effectN" parameters being left in is a different matter, and will be the case until all occurrences have been updated. 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 17:44, August 11, 2011 (UTC)


 * *Uni... eh... close enough :P
 * Well, if we don't need people to add Activation condition, costs, etc to monster effect types, then I think it's probably better to separate the monster effect types and S/T effect types.
 * Is there a way to add a comment to the monster effect types without the whole thing being changed into the query? like on Trap Reactor・Y FI, currently it's just a hidden message with
 * Ignition-like, Quick-like and Trigger-like effects of S/T cards might be worth mentioning as well.
 * -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 02:19, August 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * It wouldn't be that hard to limit usable values according to the card type while using the same parameter for all of them, I think. I'm aiming to simplify use here; you can't get much simpler than a single parameter. ;)
 * Let me put it this way, do such comments affect anything now? ;)
 * Should those three be added as explicit S/T effect types, and if so, where should they link? 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 03:47, August 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * ... I still think it's better to move this to Forum:CardTable2 discussion...
 * Didn't know you could do that; if that's the case, then sure.
 * The hidden message doesn't affect SMW searches, but I was thinking that it might be better if you could see the message without going into edit mode; although the Reactors are the only ones which need to do that at the moment.
 * I thought we had pages for all of them, but we didn't, the only one we have is Continuous Trap Cards with Quick-like Effects.... guess I'll have to make pages for them some time; but I'm thinking that it will be better if we just shorten the page names to just Ignition-like, Quick-like and Trigger-like, just like how the rulings have them.
 * They are mainly for Spell/Trap Cards with Continuous-like properties, that would be Field Spells, Equip Spells and Continuous S/T. I'll try list all of them with at least 1 example for each:
 * Messenger of Peace - Continuous, Maintenance Cost
 * Fairy Box - Trigger-like, Maintenance Cost
 * Call of the Mummy - Ignition-like
 * Stumbling - Trigger-like
 * and then the newer cards:
 * Royal Oppression - Quick-like
 * Black Garden - Trigger-like, Ignition-like
 * Ojama Country - Ignition-like, Continuous
 * Mark of the Rose - Cost, Continuous, Trigger-like, Trigger-like
 * There are others like Dawn of the Herald; which makes things even harder, I think it would be: Condition, Effect, Trigger... (I can see why we don't use Cost and Activation Requirements for monster effects now...)
 * Ritual of Grace - Condition, Effect, Ignition (lingering is created by the Ignition)
 * Iron Core of Koa'ki Meiru - Trigger-like
 * Similar to monster effects, I don't think lingering is worth being mentioned on its own, as (I think) it is always created by some other effect, and not something on its own. -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 08:27, August 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * That's the first I've heard you mention it, but in retrospect, yeah, I should've posted the main part of my op there and then just pointed to it... Feel free to move this whole thing there if you'd like (though maybe leave a pointer to it from here? how do you want it, Cheesedude?). =)
 * Yay parameter unification! =D
 * Hmm... I'm really not sure of any good way to do so. With only one group of cards needing it at the moment, though, is it something we want to try to do anyways?
 * Would we really need to note Conditions now, what with the Problem-Solving Card Text update and everything?
 * So, the current list for S/T cards is Continuous, Maintenance, Cost, Effect, Trigger(-like), Ignition(-like), and Quick-like, right? You think we don't need Lingering any more? 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 08:50, August 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * I'll use an example for a reason:
 * Meklord Emperor Skiel being:
 * Summon Condition, Trigger, Continuous, Ignition, Continuous, Ignition
 * ought to be clear and enough; but allowing the S/T variables into the monster variables might make a few people want to make it something like:
 * Summon Condition, Summon Condition, Activation Requirement, Trigger, Continuous, Condition, Ignition, Continuous, Cost, Ignition.
 * Which is right, but overly redundant and exceedingly confusing.
 * Imo, yes, Lingering shouldn't be necessary for the reason mentioned above ; except on Tokens. But I'd like more opinions on this.
 * It's kinda like "Once per turn, you can select 1 monster on the field and destroy it." = "Ignition" vs. "Condition/Ignition".
 * -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 09:21, August 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * And then I come across Limiter Removal and Book of Eclipse which, in a separate sentence, say "During the End Phase, ..." = Lingering.
 * So, for things like Brain Control which says "Take control of it until the End Phase."; I think it's not necessary to split it into Effect/Lingering. This is what I'd like more opinions on. -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 11:55, August 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * Move it if you like, it would allow others to comment more effectively. Though I also somehow doubt anyone else has much to say, honestly. Cheesedude (talk • contribs) 15:55, August 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * (Indent reset) Moved. Maybe now we can goad Delt into saying something? =D
 * You don't have to worry about Monster and S/T values getting used side-by-side, it should be quite easy to prevent that altogether. =)
 * This all means the list is now Activation, Continuous, Maintenance, Cost, Effect, Lingering, Trigger(-like), Ignition(-like), and Quick-like, right? Do you only need Trigger-like and Ignition-like, or do you also need Trigger and Ignition? 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 17:51, August 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * @ reactors; It's not too important in terms of gameplay, so it could be left like that for now. I'll bring it up again if there is a case that does affect gameplay.
 * The full list should be;
 * All
 * Condition, Lingering, Maintenance Cost, Continuous
 * Monsters only
 * Flip, Ignition, Quick, Summon, Trigger
 * Spell and Trap only
 * Ignition-like, Quick-like, Trigger-like, Act, Cost, Effect
 * Listed where it would be used in as well for reference later on.
 * -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 02:19, August 13, 2011 (UTC)


 * All right. I'm thinking probably the most straightforward way to allow for that, at any rate (both from a coding and a usage perspective), is by adding an "ocgeffect" parameter.
 * How about "None", is that needed anywhere (and, as far as monster effects go, is it actually used anywhere)? Other than that, I can get this coded up later. 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 16:41, August 13, 2011 (UTC)


 * Also, when I do so, I'm going to go ahead and add tracking categories for the old parameters. I was going to hold off on this for a while, but fewer edits is probably better given our recent history of getting SMW shut off by editing CardTable2. =D 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 16:51, August 13, 2011 (UTC)


 * 'None' didn't show up on the search, if if there were any, then it would be just be left out or it just won't be an effect monster.
 * If it's left out, the new search I'm using will still make the card name show up; this is how I found The Dragon Dwelling in the Deep last night.
 * Is it possible to make it so that if attribute == spell or trap, then putting in 'Ignition' will make it 'Ignition-like'? (the same for Quick-like, Trigger-like as well) -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 23:49, August 13, 2011 (UTC)


 * All right, I'll add a tracking category for any unrecognized values when I update CardTable2. Should I remove support for "None"?
 * Yeah, that shouldn't be a problem, and is how I likely would have done it anyways. ;) 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 01:38, August 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * Yea, "None" should be unnecessary, it's the same as leaving it out all together, but all effect monsters will have an effect, and we don't add anything to normal monsters anyways. -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 01:58, August 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * Do you know of a way to get it to not ignore repeated values when using #ask? -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 01:33, August 20, 2011 (UTC)


 * Do you mean, some way to get it to add more than one instance of a value to a property for a given page? I don't know of any way to do so myself, no. 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 02:37, August 20, 2011 (UTC)


 * If that's what; how
 * says: Crystal Beast Amethyst Cat (Continuous Monster Effect)
 * instead of: Crystal Beast Amethyst Cat (Continuous Monster Effect, Continuous Monster Effect)
 * then yes, that's what I'm referring to. -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 03:47, August 20, 2011 (UTC)
 * then yes, that's what I'm referring to. -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 03:47, August 20, 2011 (UTC)


 * Yeah, that's what I thought you were talking about. Unfortunately, I don't know any way to get SMW to behave that way (Delt may know something I don't, though). 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 06:01, August 20, 2011 (UTC)


 * I'll keep the list of differences updated here:
 * Trap Reactor・Y FI - Quick (OCG), Trigger (TCG)
 * Spell Reactor・RE - Quick (OCG), Trigger (TCG)
 * General Gantala of the Ice Barrier - Ignition (OCG), Trigger (TCG)
 * Red-Eyes Wyvern - Ignition (OCG), Trigger (TCG)
 * King of the Beasts - Ignition (OCG), Summoning Condition in (TCG)
 * Can you add the if attribute is spell or trap, then putting in 'Ignition' will make it 'Ignition-like' (the same for Quick-like, Trigger-like as well) some time soon? -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 03:23, September 25, 2011 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I'll try to get to this sometime this (next) week. 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 03:32, September 25, 2011 (UTC)


 * Ok. On a not so related topic (since it should be short), someone tried to add a Vietnamese name to Clear World, and I don't think there's a parameter for that. Delete it, or add it? -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 11:02, September 28, 2011 (UTC)


 * Actually, there is one (viname), but it only adds the provided name to Property:Vietnamese Name; it doesn't actually display visibly in the table anywhere. I went ahead and fixed the table. 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 16:57, September 28, 2011 (UTC)


 * So I mentioned something about trying to get SMW searches to list "Continuous, Continuous" instead of "Continuous" when asked for something with repeated effects. Would making also go into another new parameter that is a text type (similar to the ) and then calling that new parameter instead work?
 * So
 * still returns: Crystal Beast Amethyst Cat (Continuous Monster Effect)
 * and
 * returns: Crystal Beast Amethyst Cat (Continuous, Continuous)
 * -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 04:19, November 19, 2011 (UTC)
 * returns: Crystal Beast Amethyst Cat (Continuous, Continuous)
 * -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 04:19, November 19, 2011 (UTC)


 * I think so, though I think it'll require much of the logic to be duplicated (I'll have to see if I can do anything about that), and perhaps a better name for the property is just "Effect types"? 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 04:24, November 19, 2011 (UTC)


 * Nice, and yes, that name is better. Doesn't the logic stuff format it? So returning the raw text would be the simple default.
 * I don't think I mentioned why it is needed, it'll make updating the effects and maintaining them to contain correct info much easier. -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 04:31, November 19, 2011 (UTC)


 * Nope, SMW does all the formatting, and the default is links (this is something I'm fighting against at the moment while trying to do something about orphaned card info pages; the more I work with it, the more I decide SMW wasn't designed nearly as well as it should have been =P ). 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 06:26, November 19, 2011 (UTC)


 * Where's  located? I can't seem to find it.
 * Category:Card table transclusions using deprecated parameters (effectN) is cleared.
 * Kuriboh Token uses altjplore. That isn't a parameter.
 * -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 09:33, November 28, 2011 (UTC)


 * CardTable2/effect.
 * Cool, I'll merge the checks with the other deprecated parameter checks next time I edit CardTable2.
 * The alternate Japanese lore here looks to be used in video games. Should we add parameters for JP VG lores, I wonder? (and really, the whole VG lore param system needs to be extended to cover all games with card lores/effects (or anything akin to that), and then usage of such enforced across the wiki (yes, even where the VG lore matches the OCG/TCG lore), though that would obviously take quite a while to achieve) 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 20:40, November 28, 2011 (UTC)


 * In many cases, the cards have the same effects, but the actual, in-game lore is choppy or contains stuff like "Field" instead of "field" and so on. So yeah, we should have all video game parameters listed.
 * On a related note, the fact that we don't have alternate language anime and manga parameters causes some interesting ordering issues. Take a look at "Number 15: Gimmick Puppet - Giant Killer". The French lore (which is really an unofficial French anime lore) appears above the English anime lore. Cheesedude (talk • contribs) 21:35, November 28, 2011 (UTC)


 * The real problem with adding new lore (and name) parameters helter-skelter, though, is that it's unclear what the relationship between these parameters and the Card Names/Lores pages is supposed to be. Current usage seems to suggest that non-English/non-Japanese parameters are just for official names and lores, but this isn't enforced or even spelled out anywhere, so the parameters ultimately end up being used for all sorts of stuff. Add onto this the fact that names and lores are known to change, both between releases and even within the same release - do we want parameters for every single possibility (and if so, what role is meant to be played by Card Names/Lores pages), or do we want parameters for only a subset (and if so, what subset, and how do we enforce this, and do other names/lores get added instead to the Card Names/Lores pages)? Also, woo for arguing with myself! =D 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 21:52, November 28, 2011 (UTC)


 * What? If that was the case, we wouldn't be using Unofficial name and Unofficial lore for everything everywhere. There's also the issue that anime and manga lores aren't always lores. They are sometimes simply extrapolated from what a card appeared to do in a Duel, as sometimes the actual card isn't shown. And then effects change within the franchise. And then sometimes cards that are never going to be released get lores which are complete BS and put anime/manga mechanics in TCG terms. So yeah, it's a cluster****. Cheesedude (talk • contribs) 22:06, November 28, 2011 (UTC)


 * I didn't really speak very clearly above, I suppose. As you point out, we have plenty of unofficial names and lores all over the place; I was trying to get at the idea that generally, though, names and lores seem to overwhelmingly reflect OCG/TCG/anime, with much less focus on manga/VG stuff - the whole situation as it stands now is just so screwed up, though, it makes it a bit hard to clearly reason about. =P
 * As far as anime/manga lores are concerned, though, perhaps we should restrict the parameters to only those cards whose lores are explicitly shown, with all other details and effects relegated to one of the info pages (though I can't decide between Card Lores, Card Appearances, or both; also, this has interesting implications for English anime lores, since (with a few exceptions) that's one of the things removed from the card design). 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 23:26, November 28, 2011 (UTC)


 * Oh, I see. Ok.
 * I'm not sure about that. I would like to eliminate the BS I mentioned above, but restricting in that way to do so just doesn't seem right. If we were going to do that, I'd say use Card Lores, with an explicit link in Card Appearances to that section of the corresponding Card Lore page. I think it's understood that "English anime lore" really means "Japanese anime effect translated into TCG terms". Anyone viewing a page is going to know the dub removes all card text, except for in ''Pyramid of Light". Cheesedude (talk • contribs) 23:56, November 28, 2011 (UTC)


 * VG lores in other languages can be added, but I don't think it'll be used much, because even English VG lores aren't being added much.
 * -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 03:28, November 29, 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, the addition would be accompanied by a push to start using the parameters. The main reason they're not already used more widely is, I think, because they're not very widely known about, and are't really documented anywhere but the big comment table at the beginning of CardTable2's code. 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 03:38, November 29, 2011 (UTC)


 * @Dinoguy: I still didn't get where the links came from, so I tested it, and I don't see any links in Effect types. -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff)


 * Right, "Effect types" won't have any links unless we add them ourselves. I don't think there's any property type that would allow storing a list of links (though I could certainly be wrong; this is one area of SMW I don't know much about yet). 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 03:38, November 29, 2011 (UTC)


 * Then, how come  returns text and links?
 * and thus, if you only put links in the lore, it should return links yes? (unless the non-linked text is magical somehow xD)
 * Now that you mention it, I can't seem to find  in the card table. -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 03:54, November 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * Now that you mention it, I can't seem to find  in the card table. -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 03:54, November 29, 2011 (UTC)


 * Oh, that would be because I'm dumb. =D I can probably get "Effect types" to have links, then; I'll see what it takes.
 * That would be because it isn't in the code - card lores get added to Property:Lore via  (and no, I can't say offhand what the difference is between the two styles or why this style might be preferred here, but apparently there's something about it that's prevented me from replacing it in the past (as I have with other instances of #declare in CardTable2)). 「 ディノ 奴  千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 04:10, November 29, 2011 (UTC)


 * It'll be fine to not have links, and from the current format, I don't think it is possible for it to have links.
 * Maybe because  breaks the SMW thing, so you need to use the method that doesn't use []s. -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 04:58, November 29, 2011 (UTC)


 * No, I tested it while updating CardTable2, and as far as I can tell, SMW handles the nested brackets just fine. I'm really not sure why #declare is used; I'll probably just replace it with the more "standard" style in a future edit and see if anything breaks. 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 05:22, November 29, 2011 (UTC)


 * It broke. The search above says Crystal Beast Amethyst Cat (lore).
 * -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 06:05, November 29, 2011 (UTC)


 * Reverted. 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 15:28, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

Spell/Trap effect types
I finally got around to updating CardTable2 to merge the "effectstN" parameters in with the "effect" parameter; pages using the old parameter will be listed at Category:Card table transclusions using deprecated parameters (effectstN). While I was at it, I also added support for the above-discussed Effect types property, and did a token amount of other tweaking to CardTable2. If anything's broken or otherwise needs adjusted, point it out here and I'll probably get it fixed tomorrow (lol broken promises =D ). 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 05:20, November 29, 2011 (UTC)


 * Yay. -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 06:05, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

Categories
If you've been around for a few years, you may remember that we used to auto-categorize cards by ATK, DEF, Type, Attribute, etc. Back in 2008-ish, however (I can't remember exactly when it happened, but it was sometime around then), these categories were removed in favor of SMW properties. Personally, I never liked how the categories were completely removed, and more recently, we have re-added a select few of the categories. I would like to re-add many of the rest (primarily card type/property, ATK, DEF, Level/Rank, Attribute, Type; there may be a couple of other things) and was wondering what everyone else thought (in particular, if anyone has suggestions for other things to categorize by; I'd also take suggestions on the categories currently being added). Note that I do not intend to add categorization for stuff like effect types or archetypes unless there's overwhelming desire for it; that just seems like overkill for me and would result in a ridiculous number of new categories, and an even more ridiculous number of categories on many pages. Thoughts? 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 22:27, August 19, 2011 (UTC)


 * QQ, What exactly do Categories do / what are the uses for them that SMW properties can't do? -Falzar FZ- (talk page|useful stuff) 01:33, August 20, 2011 (UTC)


 * Categories are a navigational tool, meant to group related pages together, and are a core feature of the software rather than being reliant upon a server-intensive extension (meaning that when SMW is disabled, we could still use the categories for a much simpler listing for some stuff). SMW, on the other hand, is intended to allow listing and sorting pages pretty much arbitrarily. Basically, categories are static, and SMW is dynamic. 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 02:36, August 20, 2011 (UTC)


 * The auto-categorisation came to an end when we switched to SMW on CardTable2. I made the (admittedly, solo) decision, that at the time, SMW was far better a tool for categorising than Categories. Obviously, this was a time when SMW outages never happened.


 * The other reason, was sheer number. I'd always intended the Wikia to have the functionality of Netrep, and SMW was the best answer I'd seen for the task. With future revisions, SMW streamlined the use of properties on pages to the point where categories seemed irrelevant. Of course, categories have their uses, at the time, they took a back seat.--TwoTailedFox (My Talk Page) 23:40, October 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * So should I take this to mean you support re-adding some of the autocategorization? 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 16:49, October 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * On a limited basis. Such as listing monsters by Type and Attribute, but not for ATK and DEF.--TwoTailedFox (My Talk Page) 23:12, October 20, 2011 (UTC)


 * Aside from stepping in if/when SMW is down are there any other reasons you want them back? Another problem is Special:Ask has been locked to registered users for a few months now, killing all "further results" links. That's why people have sometimes been adding the limit=5000 to queries. I have been meaning to, but keep forgetting to or procrastinating from reporting this problem, along with Type:Length and Type:Mass not working . If it's deliberately locked for reasons beyond our control, that's another reason to invest in categories. -- Deltaneos (talk) 20:47, October 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * Scratch the types problem. That fix should have been obvious. >_> -- Deltaneos (talk) 20:52, October 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * I've largely already explained what I can of my motivations for this; you pointed out another very good reason to re-add them. Any other reasons I have are very nebulous and thus hard to pin down/explain. =)
 * So, basically, I think the by-far strongest reasoning for this boils down to "SMW is volatile, categories aren't (knock on wood)". 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 03:48, October 15, 2011 (UTC)

Relation category
I suggest to add "Relation Categories" to this Table (not "Archetype Relation Categories" as we already have it). Some cards have a relation to other specific cards or to Types but NOT to Archetype, like Elemental HERO Neos for example; it have a relation to "Yubel" NOT to Yubels archetype. --Dlamash (talk • contribs) 06:55, November 5, 2011 (UTC)


 * Wouldn't that be the |support1 = field? --Golden Key (talk • contribs) 16:39, January 6, 2012 (UTC)


 * Nope, there's a difference between support and related. Personally, I can't decide if we'd actually want to do this, or if this stuff should be kept to Card Trivia pages... 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 19:26, January 6, 2012 (UTC)


 * Doesn't seem particularly important to make, due to the trivia pages. What we do need is a separate "Series" category though. We still umbrella everything under "archetype". --Golden Key (talk • contribs) 04:22, January 7, 2012 (UTC)


 * If you're talking about categories, we already have a separate category for series. If you're talking about CardTable2 parameters, I've decided against that because it would be a code and maintenance nightmare. The appropriate labels do need to be made more generic, though. 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 05:00, January 7, 2012 (UTC)