Talk:Dragon Ruler

So, is there a reason why we're going with Supressor? I think it doesn't do the name justice. 征 seems to refer to conquering, subjugation, military conquest, et al. Basically these guys are more "The guys who reign over/control these things". --NeoArkadia (talk • contribs) 04:07, February 2, 2013 (UTC)


 * Looking through the cards, "Suppressor Dragon" makes no sense in context. They're not suppressing that element, they support that element. What would you call them instead? As for why, here's a quote from a page move of one of them: "I can't think of anything else 'sei' could mean". So it seems to be a matter of "there is nothing else we know of that this could mean". Obviously that's wrong. Cheesedude (talk • contribs) 10:32, February 2, 2013 (UTC)


 * Dot dot dot. And uh. Hrm. That's again where I run into trouble 征 means one who subjugate, reigns, controls, dominates, et al. They're basically saying these guys rule over and control Waterfalls, Storms, Flames and Rocks. Waterfall-Ruling Dragon? Waterfall Dragonlord? `-`a The main problem is the word they used is extremely clunky to put in, but works if you think visually. If you're looking for a less clunky word than Waterfall, Cascade or Torrent, thouuugh Torrent is a bit more flowery and less literal than some like.


 * But, anyways, the main issue is making Tidal sound non retarded. And that's where I run into a wall. -- NeoArkadia (talk • contribs) 10:55, February 2, 2013 (UTC)


 * Of course that you find this suspense, but it's better to wait until Konami printed those cards in TCG then we can process on the names. As usually. But I don't disagree or support anyone in here, included you, Neo. I respect to what you were thinking, Neo. But for now, it's just best suit name for those dragons. -- i  F  r  e  d  C  a  t  10:59, February 2, 2013 (UTC)


 * Suppressing is wrong though. It gives off the wrong image. The dragons don't suppress. They're the masters of Waterfalls, Rocks, Flames, Storms, Water and Earth. You don't suppress the elemental force you basically are in charge of. :V --NeoArkadia (talk • contribs) 11:02, February 2, 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, that's making a sense... And also you listed two Elements twice. -- i  F  r  e  d  C  a  t  11:06, February 2, 2013 (UTC)


 * That's because there's two Level 4 Seiryuus confirmed to be coming coming out early this month that are "The Dragon who rules over Earth" and "The Dragon who rules over Water", that are basically child forms of Redox and Tidal. --NeoArkadia (talk • contribs) 11:09, February 2, 2013 (UTC)


 * "Tidal, the Waterfall [Conquering/Dominating/Reigning/Ruling] Dragon" all seem okay to me. Clunky is better than plain wrong, so replacing "Suppressor" with any of them sounds good to me. -- Deltaneos (talk) 13:15, February 2, 2013 (UTC)


 * Such as you're the Suppressor to us, the Mover, Delta... You're an Admin. Would that making sense if I called you "DeltaNeos the Admins Suppressor" if we deal with this way? -- i  F  r  e  d  C  a  t  13:24, February 2, 2013 (UTC)


 * There, your wish has coming true, Neo - Master D changed it to "Subjugating", which is defined for "Master", just better wording. -- i  F  r  e  d  C  a  t  15:36, February 2, 2013 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I thought 'suppress' was a synonym for 'subjugate', and it sounded cooler than the latter, so I went with that. Also, there's no way in hell something will be translated as Dragonlord, ever. Mad Rest 15:39, February 2, 2013 (UTC)


 * Agreed, because of this structure deck has already occupied that name. -- i  F  r  e  d  C  a  t  16:57, February 2, 2013 (UTC)


 * Well, shriek says "Suppressor". Is this the same stupid discussion like it was done with "Number 92: Heart-eartH Dragon when you have argued about Fake-Body God instead of False Skeletal God? C'mon guys.--TheGallisMan 17:14, February 2, 2013 (UTC)


 * No, it's because translating 'god', 'king', 'emperor', or any other word that has a similar function as a lord, as 'lord', is just uncreative crap. I don't like using that word. Also, Shriek just copies us if they can't find a suitable translation of their own. Mad Rest 17:29, February 2, 2013 (UTC)


 * I know, that shriek is copying wikia but there's no reason to change the card names every time. Suppressor or Subjugating is still an unofficial name. Please wait with it 'til it becomes official in TCG! Please, guys.--TheGallisMan 17:45, February 2, 2013 (UTC)


 * It's to prevent bad name spreading and Shriek is really really bad with translating. If you feel this way that it should be left alone, then you should make the articles have the Archetype/Series names in Romanji for non Katakana words. :V


 * Also Subjugating still strikes me as bad. It implies they're keeping the elements under their thumbs when these Dragons are, from as near as the art and effects seem to imply, manipulating and using the elements to their whim. Not oppressing, they're more reigning over, controlling or governing. Think of it like the 8 Dragons from Final Fantasy VI.


 * That's why I suggested Dragonlord. These guys are the masters of their elements. -- NeoArkadia (talk • contribs) 17:49, February 2, 2013 (UTC)


 * Subjugating means to take something under your control. Also, somewhat metaphorically, it implies manipulating something at your own will. Since we're talking about the elements of nature, manipulating them suits best. Like I said, just because manipulating or controlling are something done by a lord or master, it doesn't make it right to translate it as 'lord' or 'master'. 'Sei' simply means to rule over, or to subjugate. And 'Subjugating' is aesthetically a hundred times more valuable than 'lord'. Mad Rest 18:00, February 2, 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm going over this with some people and apparently this whole thing draws back to the 征龙 (Zhenglong), some obscure chinese reference drawing back to Chinese Taoism and Mysticism. Apparently related to same source material for the Dragon Cards from the original manga. Looking further into it. -- NeoArkadia (talk • contribs) 18:28, February 2, 2013 (UTC)


 * Apparently the sovreignity angle is wrong. `-`a The dragons are more likely going for the "We embody the element". Very old weird Kanji apparently going back a long long ways. Anyways, from what I understand... The Zhenglong were apparently elemental dragon spirits of nature in Taoism that represented the classic elements of Earth, Fire, Water, Wood and Metal. If you guys are trying to go after something, go for Elemental/Avatar. -- NeoArkadia (talk • contribs) 18:39, February 2, 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm prefer "Ruling Dragon" over the current title, but I staunchly oppose "Dragonlord". Are others fine with this? --Golden Key (talk • contribs) 16:16, February 3, 2013 (UTC)


 * Uh, going to note the above. Really, I think you guys would be best served rendering this as Zhenglong, and just leave shit alone. :x If you need to translate it, go for something combining Dragon + Incarnation/Embodiment/Avatar, et al. -- NeoArkadia (talk • contribs) 16:19, February 3, 2013 (UTC)


 * Sorry, misread your last message. Since the "Zhenglong" is what they're being based on, might as well keep it simple and go with that for the time being, since a lot of people seem against "Subjugating" on other sites. --Golden Key (talk • contribs) 16:39, February 3, 2013 (UTC)


 * It'd be literally accurate (since that's what they're precisely referring to here.) And before anyone asks why the Kanji I posted is 征龙 and the cards are 征竜. Chinese vs Japanese. 征龙 (Zhenglong) is Chinese. 征竜 (Seiryuu) is Japanese. Etc. etc. --NeoArkadia (talk • contribs) 16:43, February 3, 2013 (UTC)


 * What would be accurate? 'Ruling' is basically the same as 'Subjugating'. There is no official name for the Zhenglong. (I doubt they're even based on that.) Anyway, I can't find anything about them through Google, so maybe you could post a link. I don't like 'Ruling'; 'Subjugating' sounds more cool. And we still don't have any dragons associated with wood or metal, so the idea seems a bit far-fetched right now. Mad Rest 16:55, February 3, 2013 (UTC)


 * The concepts of Metal, Wood, Water, Earth, and Fire are the Taoist classical elements of Chinese philosophy. They are, for all intents and purposes, the equivalent of the 4 Empedoclean classical elements of Greek philosophy. And the basic concept behind classical elements in any philosophy is a group of primordial elements that make up the entirety of the cosmos. The Zhenglong, are an application of animism to that concept. The fact that they have 5 members in traditional Chinese mythology is simply a result of Taoist classical elements differing. Had China used Empedocles' classical elements, there would've been four and the basic concept would've remained the same in both meaning and in application. Not to mention Japan has a tendency to adapt all sorts of things in a variety of ways. Kahunyu (talk • contribs) 19:16, February 3, 2013 (UTC)


 * And no offense, but you're not the one to be making calls on concepts. Granted, neither are we, but we're at least trying to track down the context under which this stuff is made, and this is the closest we've gotten. And if ANYTHING has been proven over 10+ years of YGO, it's that YGO creators in general are a bunch of history/mythology/philosophy otaku(and other otaku in general) who'll shove in references to anything and everything. The probability of something with a fancy title in Han characters not being a pun or being an obscure reference to something are close to zero. Unless you can provide us with a better lead, I'd suggest not using trivialities to support your arguments. Kahunyu (talk • contribs) 19:16, February 3, 2013 (UTC)


 * Also, Han characters and elitist Chinese/Japanese/Korean philosopher types and their fancy metaphysics use all sorts of characters in bizarre context. You'll see the character for Jade/Jewel used as a substitute for "perfection" in some phrases. I spent 6 years of torture having to read Han literature in school, and from my experience, dictionaries only go so far. Once you step into history, mythology, and philosophy, the characters themselves need to be combined with context. And those pricks are REALLY metaphorical and super-vague with their references/meanings. Consider it everything you've ever had to go through in High School or college with western literature and then crank it up 10 times. Metaphors + Poetry in everything. EVERYTHING. @_@ Kahunyu (talk • contribs) 19:16, February 3, 2013 (UTC)


 * Going back to the names themselves, dragons of Eastern philosophy and mythology are usually the ruling entities of their realms, and embodiments of major natural locations or phenomena. They are Emperors/Kings/Gods. Seeing all of that, context-wise our dragons here are essentially animism at its finest. They're rulers of their elements, but from a philosophical standpoint are a metaphor for the classical elements themselves, and to be more precise they're a metaphor for mother nature and whatever laws of the universe are in place. So they aren't subjugating/conquering things in the literal sense here. Forgive the long posts. New to this interface. Kahunyu (talk • contribs) 19:16, February 3, 2013 (UTC)